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#3877844 - 06/26/12 10:32 PM German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault
Feral Offline
Taoiseach den fhoirm baineann

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 2121
Loc: Wandering, but not lost
This seems to fit right in with the recent threads regarding the state and religious beliefs...
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18604664 :
Quote:
A court in Germany has ruled that circumcising young boys for religious reasons amounts to bodily harm.

In a decision that has caused outrage among Jewish and Muslim groups, the court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumps religious and parental rights.

The case involved a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.

Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.

Although male circumcision - unlike female circumcision - is not illegal in Germany, the court's judgement said the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents".

Circumcision, it decided, contravenes "interests of the child to decide later in life on his religious beliefs".
'Protect religious freedom'

The doctor involved in the case was acquitted and the ruling is not binding, but correspondents say it sets a precedent that would be taken into account by other German courts.

The president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination".

He urged the country's parliament to clarify the legal situation "to protect religious freedom against attacks".

Male circumcision is part of the ancient religious rituals of both the Jewish and Muslim faiths, as well as the traditions of some tribal groups.

In some countries, such as the United States, it is also not uncommon for parents to request that young boys are circumcised for health reasons.

The BBC's Stephen Evans in Germany says it is unclear what the next legal step with be, but this issue is a moral and political minefield.


On one hand, religion and the rights of parents to indoctrinate their children as they see fit, and/or making their medical decisions.
On the other hand, chopping the tip off the dick of a person unable to consent.
Thoughts?


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#3878655 - 06/27/12 02:17 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: Feral]
WesMordine Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 9660
Loc: In a country with no army =)
I don't see how cutting the foreskin can be something damaging to a child.

In any case, the future is clearly steering towards the nations limiting and eventually removing organized religion.
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#3878940 - 06/27/12 06:46 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: Feral]
cobalt Offline
Transition Metal

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 9812
Loc: Birmingham
Originally Posted By: Feral

On the other hand, chopping the tip off the dick of a person unable to consent.


I remember thinking circumcision was absurd when I first heard what it was when I was 6.

It's probably extremely difficult to convince a right-minded adult to amputate some of the most sensitive skin on their body in the name of an invisible sky genie. I imagine the whole thing is perpetuated by angry circumcised men desperate to inflict the same trauma on their sons before they are able to resist, like a reverse Oedipus complex.

Of course circumcision does give a pretext for some of the most fabulous Old Testament smut:

Quote:

All the men who went out of the city gate agreed with Hamor and his son Shechem, and every male in the city was circumcised.

Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male. (Gen 34:24-25)


That part never seems to get into the children's Bibles. thinking
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#3878943 - 06/27/12 06:46 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: WesMordine]
cobalt Offline
Transition Metal

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 9812
Loc: Birmingham
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
I don't see how cutting the foreskin can be something damaging to a child.


Possibly; I guess we could just ask their personal opinion about it... Oh wait they can't speak.
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#3881237 - 06/29/12 02:17 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: WesMordine]
Kthulhu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1466
Loc: R'lyeh
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
I don't see how cutting the foreskin can be something damaging to a child.

If you're so sure that something like that is so impossible to be "damaging" then let me make a suggestion. To prove your hypothesis, why don't you get a kitchen knife and slice off some mof your own personal skin? Say, a quarter inch. I'll be nice and let you decide from where (and I damn sure wager that even if you were dumb enough to accept the challenge, you'd probably avoid the entire pubic area).

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#3881599 - 06/29/12 06:22 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: Kthulhu]
1oldminer Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 7295
Loc: Stopping the Juubi's revival
Originally Posted By: Kthulhu
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
I don't see how cutting the foreskin can be something damaging to a child.

If you're so sure that something like that is so impossible to be "damaging" then let me make a suggestion. To prove your hypothesis, why don't you get a kitchen knife and slice off some mof your own personal skin? Say, a quarter inch. I'll be nice and let you decide from where (and I damn sure wager that even if you were dumb enough to accept the challenge, you'd probably avoid the entire pubic area).


I had a circumcision done when I was about 8 years old along with a hernia operation..and I recall being in a lot of pain because it was so sensitive at the time..so I am pretty sure it is pretty darn painful for a newborn...but damaging emotionally speaking? No I wouldn't say it was pscychologically scarred me. Once the physical pain and extreme sensitivity subsided after a week or so... I was fine.
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To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas


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#3881701 - 06/29/12 07:38 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: 1oldminer]
Oriental Knight Offline
Mythical Figure

Registered: 04/30/09
Posts: 64087
oy cheeky
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#3881728 - 06/29/12 07:52 PM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: Kthulhu]
WesMordine Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 9660
Loc: In a country with no army =)
Originally Posted By: Kthulhu
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
I don't see how cutting the foreskin can be something damaging to a child.

If you're so sure that something like that is so impossible to be "damaging" then let me make a suggestion. To prove your hypothesis, why don't you get a kitchen knife and slice off some mof your own personal skin? Say, a quarter inch. I'll be nice and let you decide from where (and I damn sure wager that even if you were dumb enough to accept the challenge, you'd probably avoid the entire pubic area).


Parents should not pierce their daughters earlobes either, then. Since the girls have no say on it. shrug

Of course, your remarks are not to be taken seriously in the least. I wouldn't be a proper test subject for scientific evidence of whether or not circumcision causes any psychological "damage" to children. Then again, I'm sure if the interest was there, a study involving a large sample of circumcised and uncircumcised men could help determine any correlation.

Thankfully, circumcision is not a Christian requirement. And I get to keep mine, thank you.
_________________________
Crushingly Beautiful (tm) Ladies - (as of March 31st, 2013)

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#3882673 - 06/30/12 10:57 AM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: WesMordine]
Kthulhu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1466
Loc: R'lyeh
Originally Posted By: WesMordine

Parents should not pierce their daughters earlobes either, then. Since the girls have no say on it. shrug

Nice strawman.

Most girls who get their ears (or anything else) pierced are doing so of their own volition. I've never heard of parents taking an infant to get their ears pierced, or forcing a teen or pre-teen to get their ears pierced against their will.

And again, if you're so convinced that doesn't cause any real damage, take a hacksaw to your own penis.


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#3882722 - 06/30/12 11:53 AM Re: German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault [Re: Kthulhu]
1oldminer Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 7295
Loc: Stopping the Juubi's revival
Quote:

Most girls who get their ears (or anything else) pierced are doing so of their own volition. I've never heard of parents taking an infant to get their ears pierced, or forcing a teen or pre-teen to get their ears pierced against their will.


In the province of Quebec it is a cultural thing for infant girls to have thier ears pierced almost as soon as they are born. And it has had nothing to do with religious beliefs...as it is largely a secularist society.



Edited by 1oldminer (06/30/12 11:55 AM)
_________________________
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To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas


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