God? Or religion?


Respect is earned. This country was born of it.

I agree to an extent, as I've stated in your other thread. But I do not see an 'assault' from all sides, mostly the state.
People would use it, whether to force vaccination, carbon reduction, or remove evolution from textbooks.

I don't agree, I think it is more important than ever. As for the vague lawsuit reference, if you'd read the case, you might side with her.

It may be, but referencing television is absolutely warranted - this situation is stereotypical fiction. I've heard quite a bit about these 50's you speak of, but personally have yet to find an example of it outside of the media.

Agreed.

Agreed, if only in spats for limited amounts of time.

Generation generalization? It seems inherent for the past "generation" to look down at the next.

I believe it is, but probably not for any of the reasons you think it is.

I disagree while there are few honest reasonable atheists (and they are the ones who I would say are true atheists because the concept of God doesn't provoke them to rage and anger as it does with the majority who say they are atheist)but there are the militant dogmatic atheists that dominate the internet who are quite extremist in thier own viewpoint.

Have you seen Youtube videos when religion is discussed? The vast majority of responses are from gnostic atheists who utter the most vile vitrolic commentaries towards thiests...especially towards christians and the ones who single them out were former atheists.

And let it be known that it was under officially atheist countries that some of the worst examples of attrocities and violence that man has inflicted towards his fellow man.

When it comes to human pride and human nature fanaticism does not begin nor end by those who profess to do God's will.

But you would disagree. You're a gnostic theist. I wouldn't expect you to agree with my statement.

The problem is, you're using inductive reasoning. You're using the case of a few people you've either known or seen videos of to condemn the whole. The reality is, the vast majority of violent acts are perpetrated by gnostic theists and not gnostic atheists. One need look no further than the religious affiliations of prison populations to prove my point. I'll let you look that up, because I'm pretty sure I already pointed that out in another thread somewhere. The science is conclusive on this matter. Gnostic theists are more likely to commit violent crimes than gnostic atheists. That is not a debatable topic. Except by gnostic theists. But their (and your) certainty prevents you from accepting my claim. Not your fault, just the way it is.

As far as the classic Stalin/Hitler arguments, we've also already discussed this topic at great length, so a huge rebuttal is not necessary. But to summarize: those people were not motivated by their lack of belief. Quite the contrary. They were motivated by their adoption and belief in Italian-style Fascism. That has nothing to do with religion. In fact, I would argue the same thing for BOTH sides. None of what they did was because of religion or a lack thereof. They did what they did because of Fascism. I seethe when people try and claim that they did what they did because they were atheists. Whereas Stalin was an atheist, he only tore down churches because they threatened his power. In fact, he rebuilt the church in Moscow later on because he realized that it appeased the masses. Whether Hitler was an atheist is debatable. He might have been christian, he might of been into the occult - but none of that matter. It was a belief in Fascism that motivated them.

I hope you will seek out previous discussions on the topic of fascism versus atheism to learn how that argument is no longer valid.

I'll be honest though, I don't see you coming around to my point of view on things though. Your Gnosticism has built-in protections against disbelief. And I recognize that. I don't see you or anyone else changing their world view based upon a forum post. But if you're really interested in the agnostic view, I strongly suggest reading 'The God Delusion'. Cast aside everything you've heard about the author and the book and really try it with an open mind. It has very concise and convincing counterarguments for nearly every possible gnostic viewpoint. He is much more articulate than I am.

By your own definition, there has not been such a country.

Not sure I understand; it's almost like this should be two separate statements. Are you saying that fanatics don't profess to do God's Will?

What he said. lol.

You could say that I am.




And the actions of fanatics who kill in the name of god do not reflect the majority of believers. The vast majority of religious people and thier institutions do far more good than harm The atheist and secular side only point out to the negative actions of the religious extremists to paint the whole group with the same brush.



Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn one of the most famous soviet dissidents of his day regarding atheism...





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

Yes it is true that there are atheists who can put many self-professed religious folks to shame with thier altruism and compassion but you cannot deny that with exception of Hitler, Stalin and Mao were atheists and they did wicked deeds on a global scale.

One of the things that I disagree vehemently with the atheist philopsophy is its denial of accountabilty beyond this mortal life..that it is only the here and now that each of us are going to be accountable for..and once we die we cease to exist and since there is no afterlife according to atheism..there is no justice nor mercy beyond this sphere... for in the case of Stalin and Mao and all other wicked men and women who died in thier sins they will never be held accountable for thier sins.

You may not believe that atheism in itself is the cause of untold attrocities that man has inflicted upon his fellow humans but it is because what Solzhenitsyn saw first hand under the communists the results that he came to the conclusion what he learned in childhood when calamities fall upon the people when they choose to not follow the ways of God...when people turn away from God they will seek to become gods unto themselves as Stalin Mao and Hitler did and follow the ways of the devil.





Nor do I expect you to come around to my gnostic beliefs I may disagree with your beliefs but I will concede that you are more intellectually honest than what I have seen from a lot atheists and self professed religous folks.

However...

I believe Richard Dawkins is rather much an atheist than he is agnostic who is quite dogmatic in his views.Dr. William Craig a noted theologian and christian apologist has invited Mr. Dawkins numerous times in a debate which he has repeated refused to do so.

Dawkins himself has admited that he is a militant atheist...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_dawkins

What are you talking about Feral? Communist countries such as the former Soviet Union were officially atheist.




They profess to do the will of God but what they do is contrary to God's Will.

For Jesus himself said...Love one another and love thy nieghbour.

I can, and I did. You are a gnostic theist. That is why I have no expecations that you will see/accept the viewpoints of an atheist; agnostic or otherwise.


You were doing that exact thing with your generalizations about atheists. I made no claim that a majority of religious people do bad things. I said that a majority of the bad things done are done by religious people. There is a difference and mountains of evidence to support this.



Solzhenitsyn's views on atheism do not change facts. They are his opinions only, and religious ones at that. He was also an anti-semite; should we use that to draw conclusions or change history as well? Russia was not an atheist country, it was a country once run by an atheist. And while it was run by said atheist, the government espoused religion was Fascism. The populace remained (and still remains) largely Orthodox. The closest thing there is (or has ever been) to an 'atheist country' is Sweden, as it has the highest population of atheists on earth. Please show me what Solzhenitsyn has to say about the horrible warmongers, the Swedes.


Actually, I won't concede that. I will concede that Fascists have done wicked things on a global scale, however. If you want to talk about people motivated by religion, I'd be happy to enlighten you about the Christian Dark Ages. But I guess it's only an atrocity if happened in the 20th century, right? Mao, Hitler and Stalin were Fascists. That hinges upon a cult-of-personality. I dare you to view the statues of Stalin that still exist in Russia and say that Fascism didn't have a deity.


You have just stumbled upon the greatest misconception in all of theism. That because there is no afterlife, there is no accountability. I think if you did some research, you will find that humanists tend to be, on average, more moral than their religious counterparts. Again, look at prison populations. 10-15% of the American population is non-religious, but only 0.01% of the prison population is non-religious. That alone should be enough of a stat for you to realize that you're completely wrong on this issue. Just because there is no god, and is no afterlife, doesn't mean that we're free to do whatever we want. The golden rule still applies, and has evolutionary origins. It doesn't need a book to make it a good standard to live by.


If you search, you'll find that he's had a hundred debates with religious people. And you will also see why he chooses no longer participate in them. It has more to do with the fact that religious people, on average, cannot be reasoned with. If they could, they would no longer be religious. He has nothing left to prove. Also, you use the term 'militant' when referring to his atheism. I think that is a misnomer, as he has not engaged in a single act of violence towards another human being; whereas militant theists conduct acts of violence quite often. Richard Dawkins isn't firebombing clinics. A lack of belief in something is a terrible motivator. A gnostic belief in something is an awesome motivator. Just ask yourself this one thing - Even though you weren't there - What were the last words on the lips of those terrorists that flew the planes into the twin towers on 9/11?

It should also be noted, that anything I'm posting could be fact-checked. There are very real stats out there that support my statments. Whereas there is opinion intermingled in my posts, most of the things I'm saying are verifiable. Hitler, Mao and Stalin didn't do what they did because they were atheists (or because they were theists), they did what they did because they were fascists. There are more religious people in jail than non-religious. Militant gnostic theists do perpetrate more acts of violence than gnostic atheists.

You disagree...with what? None of the statements in your post contradict any of the statements in DLH's: