Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
Oh, and, if it's a passed law, then it is, by definition, not illegal.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
Originally Posted By: foobar456
Religion that isn't in charge of the government will always say they are persecuted when they don't get everything their way. Sometimes it's true, in this case it isn't. Run a business, follow the laws for it. Don't like the laws Work the system to try to get them changed.
Historical precedent for churches running such businesses does not change the fact that THEY ARE BUSINESSES.
*sigh*
THEY ARE NOT BUSINESSES!!! THEY ARE A MISSION OF THE CHURCH!!! A COMMAND FROM GOD TO DO GOOD, CARE FOR THE WEAK, SPREAD HIS WORD!!! THEY ARE NOT-FOR-PROFIT INSTITUTIONS (NOT "BUSINESSES")!!!
Seriously foob, you are just completely bereft of any semblence of historical knowledge of just who provided these services throughout history!
Guess who it was... it was either the state or THE CHURCH!!!
Honestly foob, pick up a fucking history book buddy! You are embarrassing yourself here!
It was only in the modern liberal age that these functions began to be taken up by the private sector, and even now, state sponsored schools far outnumber private sector schools - both K-12 and higher ed, and religious charitable institutions are FAR more numerous than their secular counterparts. Only in medicine has the private sector surpassed religious and state institutions in terms of size.
You could not be more wrong about this if you tried! And CLEARLY you are trying VERY hard to be wrong.
Your counter is an EPIC FAIL!
Sorry buddy, but history wins and you lose.
The statement "They weren't businesses" does not contradict the statement "They are businesses".
If refuting a person's statement is the requirement for victory, neither you nor history won.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
To separate their work in these fields from their work in the "church" (i.e. place of worship) proper is a logical fallacy as history makes all too clear.
Foobar pointed it out, but so will I: What logical fallacy? And which kind?
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
ANYONE working in a religious institution, whether that be a hospital, school, university or charity, IS working for a "church."
You may inform us if the quotes indicate something in addition or possibly a meaning in contradiction to the definition of the word church, however, otherwise, no.
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
You should know better than to make such an obviously fallacious argument.
See above.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
You are as wrong on this as one could be.
Specifically, how so?
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
And the constitution protects their right to the free exercise of said activities.
Specifically, which activities?
The constitution does not say that a religious person can never be forced to do something that offends them, either as a citizen or as a member of a particular institution, save where what might be offending them is to not engage in their particular form of worship or assembly.
(and yes, I know I mixed positives and negatives)
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however, take note of the specific wording of the above, non parenthesized sentence, before you respond, if you do.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
I don't need to pick up a history book. Not once have I ever disputed your claims about the history of hospitals and schools.
Your claim that because of history, they are not businesses, it what I dispute. And saying "read a book" in response is not cutting it. Saying that is is a "logical fallacy" to dispute historical precedent is to expose your ignorance of logic.
They are not "businesses," they are long established, NOT-FOR-PROFIT religious institutions!
That they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS and not "businesses" is not merely a matter of historical precedent, it is also a matter of LEGAL precedent! And in that respect stare decisis is the binding force that should rule here!
The government is making a blatant play against that precedent through Obamacare!
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
All your wishes and rhetorical posturing aside, you are WRONG!
I don't know how I can make this any clearer.
You can try repeating it again, that might help.
They are not religious institutions. They are RUN by religious institutions. They provide services, for which they charge fees.
I don't need to pick up a history book. Not once have I ever disputed your claims about the history of hospitals and schools.
Your claim that because of history, they are not businesses, it what I dispute. And saying "read a book" in response is not cutting it. Saying that is is a "logical fallacy" to dispute historical precedent is to expose your ignorance of logic.
They are not "businesses," they are long established, NOT-FOR-PROFIT religious institutions!
That they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS and not "businesses" is not merely a matter of historical precedent, it is also a matter of LEGAL precedent! And in that respect stare decisis is the binding force that should rule here!
The government is making a blatant play against that precedent through Obamacare!
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
All your wishes and rhetorical posturing aside, you are WRONG!
I don't know how I can make this any clearer.
You can try repeating it again, that might help.
They are not religious institutions. They are RUN by religious institutions. They provide services, for which they charge fees.
Foob can you find where these hospitals actually charge fees for profit?
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
And you might want to look at this as well Foob. According to a report by Thompson Reuters suggests that church run hospitals provide better care than secular run hospitals.
I don't need to pick up a history book. Not once have I ever disputed your claims about the history of hospitals and schools.
Your claim that because of history, they are not businesses, it what I dispute. And saying "read a book" in response is not cutting it. Saying that is is a "logical fallacy" to dispute historical precedent is to expose your ignorance of logic.
They are not "businesses," they are long established, NOT-FOR-PROFIT religious institutions!
That they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS and not "businesses" is not merely a matter of historical precedent, it is also a matter of LEGAL precedent! And in that respect stare decisis is the binding force that should rule here!
The government is making a blatant play against that precedent through Obamacare!
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
All your wishes and rhetorical posturing aside, you are WRONG!
I don't know how I can make this any clearer.
You can try repeating it again, that might help.
They are not religious institutions. They are RUN by religious institutions. They provide services, for which they charge fees.
And ALL Western religions (and many Eastern) require tithes. Like any institution, money is required to survive. The money requirement holds true for churches (places of worship), educational, medical and charitable institutions.
The "fees" charged by religious institutions are not so charged for the purpose of making a profit for the church or, more specifically, for the personal aggrandizement of a church official, but for the purpose of remaining capable of offering said services.
You can keep trying to conflate secular businesses with religious institutions, but only the ignorant wiil buy this fallacious argument.
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