Not how they run their affairs, how they run their businesses. They can have all the affairs they want. Just stay away from the little kids, please.
If members of the clergy are involed in any personal misconduct then there should be a state/provincial or federal investigation.But how they adminster and run thier hospitals is thier own business..church run hospitals are not in the business of making profit.but in the business of helping those in need of medical care and attention.
If you dislike church run hospitals then go to a secular run one.
As dbl stated no one forcing you to do anything.
Government shouldn't meddle in businesses whatsoever anyway it is always a recipe for disaster.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
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No church is forced to run a secular business like a hospital or a university. If they do, then they willingly subject themselves to secular laws with regards to running that business. Do you really want to use historical precedent with regards to church practices REALLY?
What is it with you and history? Are you boycotting history and precedent? The Catholic Church is compelled to work in those fields through their faith and precedent. There are entire orders of monks that have been devoted to these fields for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Your obstinance notwithstanding, you flatly WRONG on this issue!
As for your question and graphic; consider these stats:
Deaths from the Inquisition over nearly 200 years... low to mid-four figures (depending on whose estimates you use).
Deaths from a mere 30 years of Stalin's godless "worker's paradise," 10's of MILLIONS (how many "10's" depends on whose estimates are referenced).
Seems like Locke, Montesquieu, Jefferson, Tocqueville, and many others were onto something in stressing the importance of religion and virtue in the maintenance of a republican government, and how the necessary absence of virtue in a collectivist government leads to tyranny and death.
Sure, Plato, More, Hobbs and even Marx like to paint pretty word pictures of their collectivist utopias, and yet every attempt to achieve them has ended in disaster and mass deaths.
Why leftists are so hostile to religious influences in civil society and are so enamored with godless collectivist society, particularly given the objective historical record of these two types of government puzzles me.
It speaks to either a very highly selective reading of history or a complete ignorance of it altogether.
Religion that isn't in charge of the government will always say they are persecuted when they don't get everything their way. Sometimes it's true, in this case it isn't. Run a business, follow the laws for it. Don't like the laws? Work the system to try to get them changed.
Historical precedent for churches running such businesses does not change the fact that THEY ARE BUSINESSES.
Religion that isn't in charge of the government will always say they are persecuted when they don't get everything their way. Sometimes it's true, in this case it isn't. Run a business, follow the laws for it. Don't like the laws Work the system to try to get them changed.
Historical precedent for churches running such businesses does not change the fact that THEY ARE BUSINESSES.
*sigh*
THEY ARE NOT BUSINESSES!!! THEY ARE A MISSION OF THE CHURCH!!! A COMMAND FROM GOD TO DO GOOD, CARE FOR THE WEAK, SPREAD HIS WORD!!! THEY ARE NOT-FOR-PROFIT INSTITUTIONS (NOT "BUSINESSES")!!!
Seriously foob, you are just completely bereft of any semblence of historical knowledge of just who provided these services throughout history!
Guess who it was... it was either the state or THE CHURCH!!!
Honestly foob, pick up a fucking history book buddy! You are embarrassing yourself here!
It was only in the modern liberal age that these functions began to be taken up by the private sector, and even now, state sponsored schools far outnumber private sector schools - both K-12 and higher ed, and religious charitable institutions are FAR more numerous than their secular counterparts. Only in medicine has the private sector surpassed religious and state institutions in terms of size.
You could not be more wrong about this if you tried! And CLEARLY you are trying VERY hard to be wrong.
I don't need to pick up a history book. Not once have I ever disputed your claims about the history of hospitals and schools.
Your claim that because of history, they are not businesses, it what I dispute. And saying "read a book" in response is not cutting it. Saying that is is a "logical fallacy" to dispute historical precedent is to expose your ignorance of logic.
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: foobar456
Nice try there, but there is no prohibition of the free exercise of religion going on.
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
Yes there is! Catholic, and other religious institutions who wish to have, or do have employer health insurance plans, and who are paying for some or all of that coverage, are, in fact, paying for contraceptive coverage because Obamacare FORCES ALL insurers to provide said coverage for "free."
But as anyone knows (unless they are completely ignorant of basic economics), there is no such thing as a free lunch. That coverage WILL be reflected in the price of policies! So any religious institution providing and paying for employee health insurance with ANY insurer, is, ipso facto, paying for contraceptive services.
How is this a prevention of the exercise of religion?
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
Catholic, and other religious institutions who wish to have, or do have employer health insurance plans, and who are paying for some or all of that coverage, are, in fact, paying for contraceptive coverage because Obamacare FORCES ALL insurers to provide said coverage for "free."
To which institutions, specifically, do you refer?
Also, if so...and?
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
But as anyone knows (unless they are completely ignorant of basic economics), there is no such thing as a free lunch. That coverage WILL be reflected in the price of policies! So any religious institution providing and paying for employee health insurance with ANY insurer, is, ipso facto, paying for contraceptive services.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Economies are not zero sum systems, and, as you have pointed out, contraception is somewhat cheap.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
I don't need to pick up a history book. Not once have I ever disputed your claims about the history of hospitals and schools.
Your claim that because of history, they are not businesses, it what I dispute. And saying "read a book" in response is not cutting it. Saying that is is a "logical fallacy" to dispute historical precedent is to expose your ignorance of logic.
They are not "businesses," they are long established, NOT-FOR-PROFIT religious institutions!
That they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS and not "businesses" is not merely a matter of historical precedent, it is also a matter of LEGAL precedent! And in that respect stare decisis is the binding force that should rule here!
The government is making a blatant play against that precedent through Obamacare!
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
All your wishes and rhetorical posturing aside, you are WRONG!
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 987
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: dblboggie
They are not "businesses," they are long established, NOT-FOR-PROFIT religious institutions!
That they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS and not "businesses" is not merely a matter of historical precedent, it is also a matter of LEGAL precedent! And in that respect stare decisis is the binding force that should rule here!
The government is making a blatant play against that precedent through Obamacare!
IT IS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL... PERIOD!
All your wishes and rhetorical posturing aside, you are WRONG!
I don't know how I can make this any clearer.
It isn't precisely clear what your argument is, step by step, although your individual sentences are phrased clearly, perhaps.
I'm also not sure anyone said that your conclusion ("foobar is wrong") was unclear. If anything, it's your justification, and the validity of said justification, which is unclear.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
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