...and the muslim community needs to be very concerned with the threat of islamic extremism as well...
I think that's very true in Muslim countries. Like most other brands of home-grown terror, it is usually first directed at its own people. Statistics do show that murderers kill family or people they know, not random strangers. Blacks prey on blacks, whites on whites, orthodox Jews on reformed Jews, Sunni on Shi'a...and of course the other way around.
What's the expression? Something about the only thing keeping any group of people from tearing each other apart is a temporary common enemy.
_________________________ "There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't."
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 986
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Originally Posted By: foobar456
[that's pretty much all sermon, so I'l just start fresh]
So which is it, illogical or unappealing? It is neither logical nor illogical for there to be an ultimate purpose to the universe, or no ultimate purpose to the universe. It is what it is. Your beliefs give you the illusion of logicality, because your starting point is that there MUST be a reason for everything.
If non-believers will get a final chance at redemption after death, what's the point with the whole posthumous baptism thing the Mormons have going? Now THAT's illogical.
Personally, I avoid discussions of logic, because while many believers will allow glaring internal inconsistencies to creep into their speech/writing, some few others will eliminate all contradictions, and make their beliefs seem very appealing.
The (ultimate) problem with people claiming that these religious figures/settings actually exist, one that (I expect) will remain for a very, very long time, is that there isn't a shred of proof for any of it.
To simply focus on whether or not miner's beliefs make sense or are logical is sort've like trying to see how creative miner is, and how much knowledge went into his beliefs. How well he's constructed his belief system, in other words. And who knows, he may have done a very good job at it.
But truly, even if his belief system was completely consistent and appealing on a wide variety of levels, it wouldn't matter one bit.
(Except, of course, if the way in which it was appealing was that it incorporated at least one concrete tie to reality, even if that tie, while itself concrete, was only suggestive of the ultimate claim that miner wished to prove: The claim of gods, heaven, hell, etc. --I don't expect that he has anything like that, though he should feel free to enlighten me--)
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 986
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
And directly to you, miner:
In and of itself, it matters not how well thought out your beliefs are. At least, it matters not, in and of itself, in any discussion of whether a thing exists, exactly as described.
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
In and of itself, it matters not how well thought out your beliefs are. At least, it matters not, in and of itself, in any discussion of whether a thing exists, exactly as described.
What I find ironic is the number of those who don't believe whatsoever the existence of God and yet they flood the youtube videos, forums or websites concerning religious discussions trying to argue thier case against religion and God..they hate the message but still they keep listening to some person stating his reasons why he/she believes in God all the while mocking and belittling his/her religious beliefs...and in spite of the derision, mocking and scorning they continue to listen to all these delusional religious crackpots...
It matters not whatsoever I could say to you Lu,Foobar, Kthulhu or especially nblsavage. I repeatedly told you the evidence is everywhere around us..if we but see it by using more than our natural eyes... that there is evidence for an intellegent designer.
Your mind is already made that there is no god whatsoever...because we don't have " evidence " You and many like yourself will not believe until you get the kind of "evidence" that is acceptable to you...which I could not possibly give you and even if I could would you really believe?
I don't think so. The only way you could truly believe..is by the Spirit.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 986
Loc: MW, Local Group, Universe
Btw I've used the word evidence somewhat carelessly in the past, what I actually said was that there wasn't a shred of proof. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
It matters not whatsoever I could say to you Lu,Foobar, Kthulhu or especially nblsavage. I repeatedly told you the evidence is everywhere around us..if we but see it by using more than our natural eyes... that there is evidence for an intellegent designer.
Told us?
Originally Posted By: lu61f3r
Again, do you believe everything you hear? Or read? There's not a single thing you've heard or read which you don't believe?
--------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Your mind is already made that there is no god whatsoever...because we don't have " evidence "
I'm not sure why the quote marks are there, but if you don't even have evidence for the thing, then why you do believe the thing exists?
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
You and many like yourself will not believe until you get the kind of "evidence" that is acceptable to you...which I could not possibly give you and even if I could would you really believe?
Unless you're saying that it's wrong to reject any evidence, which I don't think you are? (Is it wrong to reject someone who claims that Sasquatch exists because the sky is blue, for example?)
Otherwise, if you're saying you don't have evidence, then why do you keep claiming the thing exists? Though I suppose I could've misunderstood most everything you've said, and maybe that's not what you're claiming. Who knows.
As far as "would I really believe?," I wrote the following elsewhere, to another person, but It would seem to apply.
I'll call the asker of the question "Todd" in lieu of the actual handle. The question I was asked was:
Originally Posted By: Todd
lu61f3r, "Supposing [someone] were able to prove to you beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does exist, would you fall down at His feet, repent for being an arrogant sinner and then worship and follow Him, or would you come up with more objections to avoid that next step? Or perhaps would you simply concede His existence, but NOT worship Him?
And in response:
Originally Posted By: lu61f3r
Well the answer, [Todd], is simple:
If it were proven, then I would believe it. (proof as defined in the context of your comment) If it were merely proven that a certain thing exists, then I would believe that, but I don't know why I should worship something, or would even feel compelled to do so, just because something in particular exists.
But if it were proven that the thing has great power, control over humans to such an extent that it can "ressurect" us in such a way and place us in some strange realm where we would either be tortured, or rewarded based on the god-thing's displeasure or contentment, and also that this thing has the mindset such that it routinely does such a thing, then perhaps.
As in, if it was proven that the thing wanted me to 'worship' it, else It would attempt to prevent my death, and keep me in pain for all time, and if it was proven that it had the power to do so, then I think I would worship this thing, and do whatever was required of me, to avoid such such an eternal torture.
I mean, wouldn't anyone?
Oh, and perhaps I, if these things were proven, would also be attracted to the idea of the other alternative, if I had pleased this god-thing. Attracted to the idea of being rewarded for all eternity. But again, wouldn't anyone be attracted to the possibility of being in paradise? Infinite, eternal, paradise?
P.S. I'm assuming you have a particular conception of heaven and hell, but as always feel free to correct me, if you believe something else, and would instead ask me what I would do in a different situation.
Perhaps a bit archaic an idea of heaven, hell, etc, but I'd be willing to answer other questions, like I said to him, for some regarding some other set of religious beliefs.
----------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
I don't think so. The only way you could truly believe..is by the Spirit.
Like nbl said, this spirit concept would seem to be a part of your religious belief, yes?
So unless you're saying that a thing can cause itself.......
_________________________
An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,
"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."
nblsavage
Established Member
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 749
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Originally Posted By: nblsavage
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
I don't think so. The only way you could truly believe..is by the Spirit.
In other words, the only way to believe in something supernatural, is to believe in something supernatural.
Thanks Miner, here is your Certificate of Redundancy Certificate.
Et tu?
All I heard is the same redundancy from yourself.
Asking for physical evidence that something exists is never redundant. Since you are unable to provide this. Then the logical conclusion is that you are deluded. I see no benefit in conversing with the deluded. As Fredrich Nietzche stated - “A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
You may continue with your ranting and raving. I will be looking at beautiful women. I think my course of action is the saner and more satisfying one.
I don't think so. The only way you could truly believe..is by the Spirit.
_________________________
"Graves open wide and Helheim's doors too. The island's face is one searing fire; all without is a fear to see: Go, while there's time: yield back to your ship."
Asking for physical evidence that something exists is never redundant. Since you are unable to provide this. Then the logical conclusion is that you are deluded. I see no benefit in conversing with the deluded.
I wonder that myself nbl..who is actually the one deluding himself?
For someone who simply refuses to accept the evidence I stated is to me is someone who is in denial.The truth is out there.
But moving on...
Quote:
As Fredrich Nietzche stated - “A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
Based on his own experience I hear.
Nietzche was a brilliant philsopher but he clearly was mentally unstable at times... particularly towards the end of his life.
Quote:
You may continue with your ranting and raving. I will be looking at beautiful women. I think my course of action is the saner and more satisfying one.
Fine by me...
But why do you bother to come these political/religion threads anyway?
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
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