nblsavage
Established Member
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 750
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Originally Posted By: nblsavage
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
The fact that you exist..and are self-aware..with free will and choice...with all the attributes of human emotions and feelings is very clear evidence of an intelligent designer.
No, it's evidence of millions of years of human evolution. By the way...about that "free will" you keep harping on...You never answered my question about God interfering with Pharaoh's free will.
Read the whole chapter especially in the begining...Pharorah's heart in the begining was already hardened. Exodus 4 Verse 21
Quote:
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thouest goest to return to Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders(miracles) before Pharoah, which I have put in thine hand; but I will hardened his heart, that he shall not let the people go
Now the JST (Joseph Smith Translation)of the same verse
...and I will prosper thee; but Pharoah will harden his heart and he will not let the people go...
God already knew the heart of Pharoah and knew that he will not let the hebrews go but nevertheless Pharoah was given the chance to soften his heart and let them go that is why God commanded Moses to return to Egypt and show Pharoah the power of God that he might be convinced of the power of God that he may have a change of heart and avoid the consequences of refusing to comply to Moses' request.
So if God already knew...that also contradicts free will. Can't have omniscience and free will.
The fact that you exist..and are self-aware..with free will and choice...with all the attributes of human emotions and feelings is very clear evidence of an intelligent designer.
No, it's evidence of millions of years of human evolution. By the way...about that "free will" you keep harping on...You never answered my question about God interfering with Pharaoh's free will.
Read the whole chapter especially in the begining...Pharorah's heart in the begining was already hardened. Exodus 4 Verse 21
Quote:
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thouest goest to return to Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders(miracles) before Pharoah, which I have put in thine hand; but I will hardened his heart, that he shall not let the people go
Now the JST (Joseph Smith Translation)of the same verse
...and I will prosper thee; but Pharoah will harden his heart and he will not let the people go...
God already knew the heart of Pharoah and knew that he will not let the hebrews go but nevertheless Pharoah was given the chance to soften his heart and let them go that is why God commanded Moses to return to Egypt and show Pharoah the power of God that he might be convinced of the power of God that he may have a change of heart and avoid the consequences of refusing to comply to Moses' request.
So if God already knew...that also contradicts free will. Can't have omniscience and free will.
You still don't understand...
Yes God likely foresaw what would happen..but Pharoah had his agency...God didn't interfere with Pharaoh's choice.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
nblsavage
Established Member
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 750
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
You still don't understand...
Yes God likely foresaw what would happen..but Pharoah had his agency...God didn't interfere with Pharaoh's choice.
Oh I agree, and disagree. God didn't interfere because he doesn't exist and the whole story about Israelite slaves is pure fiction The pyramids were built by paid workers.
A few years ago, I began searching for interesting and unusual phenomena in Internet forums and mailing lists. More than once, I tried to open a discourse offering alternate, more reasonable explanations for the reported phenomena, as diplomatically and respectfully as I could. Nevertheless, the most insightful replies I got were:
Warning: skeptoid alert!
and
Another debunkatron rears its ugly head.
OK, fine, I understand that it's their forum, that I'm just a guest, and if they are not open to critical examination, that's their right and they're under no obligation to me. But I marveled that they felt that way, in light of the forum's stated purpose: "Discussion of Fortean phenomena." That their only response was to make up patronizing and dismissive nicknames for me shows that their true interest is certainly not open discussion. In fact, the next time I tried to log in, I found that my account had been banned.
This happened on three different Fortean Phenomena forums, and I'm being completely honest when I say that my posts were respectful and in no way inflammatory. They were much worse than that: they were skeptical.
So, in the interest of improved public relations, I'm going with the flow. If rationally examining pseudoscientific claims makes me an evil skeptoid debunkatron, so be it. I'll even help out by so identifying myself up front.
Thus was born Skeptoid.
By profession I am a computer scientist, both as a Silicon Valley CTO and as a consulting engineer. My only academic credential that bears any scrutiny is in Writing for Film and Television from University of California, Los Angeles. I also have a credential that doesn't bear any scrutiny — and you'll find it at Thunderwood College. I'm also a member of the National Association of Science Writers.
I've written a few books and numerous technical articles. I decided to put this experience to good use, and created the Skeptoid podcast. I'm also one of the featured bloggers on SkepticBlog, the official blog of the prospective TV series The Skeptologists which I host.
I have a great wife, two terrific kids who are smarter than me, a cat who's dumber than me, and some assorted koi who haven't yet been evaluated. We all live happily on the beautiful and sunny southern California coast.
This is a blogger's website...
Tell me nbl...
What are his credentials as an archeaologist and/or historian?
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
Crux Australis
Permanent Resident
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 9794
Loc: Emerald City, Land of Oz
Of course there were no Jews in Egypt at the time of the Pyramids being built. The time of major Pyramid building was 4500 years ago and before. The complex at Giza was completed around 2540BC - 4550 years ago.
Of course there were no Jews in Egypt at the time of the Pyramids being built. The time of major Pyramid building was 4500 years ago and before. The complex at Giza was completed around 2540BC - 4550 years ago.
Also, the Bible doesn't mention the isrealites building the pyramids.
Good call Crux.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
nblsavage
Established Member
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 750
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Quote:
About the Host - Brian Dunning
A few years ago, I began searching for interesting and unusual phenomena in Internet forums and mailing lists. More than once, I tried to open a discourse offering alternate, more reasonable explanations for the reported phenomena, as diplomatically and respectfully as I could. Nevertheless, the most insightful replies I got were:
Warning: skeptoid alert!
and
Another debunkatron rears its ugly head.
OK, fine, I understand that it's their forum, that I'm just a guest, and if they are not open to critical examination, that's their right and they're under no obligation to me. But I marveled that they felt that way, in light of the forum's stated purpose: "Discussion of Fortean phenomena." That their only response was to make up patronizing and dismissive nicknames for me shows that their true interest is certainly not open discussion. In fact, the next time I tried to log in, I found that my account had been banned.
This happened on three different Fortean Phenomena forums, and I'm being completely honest when I say that my posts were respectful and in no way inflammatory. They were much worse than that: they were skeptical.
So, in the interest of improved public relations, I'm going with the flow. If rationally examining pseudoscientific claims makes me an evil skeptoid debunkatron, so be it. I'll even help out by so identifying myself up front.
Thus was born Skeptoid.
By profession I am a computer scientist, both as a Silicon Valley CTO and as a consulting engineer. My only academic credential that bears any scrutiny is in Writing for Film and Television from University of California, Los Angeles. I also have a credential that doesn't bear any scrutiny — and you'll find it at Thunderwood College. I'm also a member of the National Association of Science Writers.
I've written a few books and numerous technical articles. I decided to put this experience to good use, and created the Skeptoid podcast. I'm also one of the featured bloggers on SkepticBlog, the official blog of the prospective TV series The Skeptologists which I host.
I have a great wife, two terrific kids who are smarter than me, a cat who's dumber than me, and some assorted koi who haven't yet been evaluated. We all live happily on the beautiful and sunny southern California coast.
This is a blogger's website...
Tell me nbl...
What are his credentials as an archeaologist and/or historian?
Don't like the message, attack the messenger. Please note the extensive references at the bottom of the article. Have a nice day
The fact that you exist..and are self-aware..with free will and choice...with all the attributes of human emotions and feelings is very clear evidence of an intelligent designer.
No, it's evidence of millions of years of human evolution. By the way...about that "free will" you keep harping on...You never answered my question about God interfering with Pharaoh's free will.
Read the whole chapter especially in the begining...Pharorah's heart in the begining was already hardened. Exodus 4 Verse 21
Quote:
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thouest goest to return to Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders(miracles) before Pharoah, which I have put in thine hand; but I will hardened his heart, that he shall not let the people go
Now the JST (Joseph Smith Translation)of the same verse
...and I will prosper thee; but Pharoah will harden his heart and he will not let the people go...
God already knew the heart of Pharoah and knew that he will not let the hebrews go but nevertheless Pharoah was given the chance to soften his heart and let them go that is why God commanded Moses to return to Egypt and show Pharoah the power of God that he might be convinced of the power of God that he may have a change of heart and avoid the consequences of refusing to comply to Moses' request.
So if God already knew...that also contradicts free will. Can't have omniscience and free will.
You still don't understand...
Yes God likely foresaw what would happen..but Pharoah had his agency...God didn't interfere with Pharaoh's choice. [/quote]
translation:
"Hi.. I like to make stuff up to try and not sound like an idiot when contradicting the holy book I say I believe in"
_________________________
"Yes.. Men like sports.. Men watch the action movie.. they eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the busoms." - Xander Harris
"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior??" "Ya know.. I meant to but then I got really busy"
nblsavage
Established Member
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 750
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Originally Posted By: Crux Australis
Of course there were no Jews in Egypt at the time of the Pyramids being built. The time of major Pyramid building was 4500 years ago and before. The complex at Giza was completed around 2540BC - 4550 years ago.
Also, the Bible doesn't mention the isrealites building the pyramids.
Good call Crux.
Also... "It wasn't until almost 2,000 years after the Great Pyramid received its capstone that the earliest known record shows evidence of Jews in Egypt, and they were neither Hebrews nor Israelites. They were a garrison of soldiers from the Persian Empire, stationed on Elephantine, an island in the Nile, beginning in about 650 BCE. They fought alongside the Pharaoh's soldiers in the Nubian campaign, and later became the principal trade portal between Egypt and Nubia. Their history is known from the Elephantine Papyri discovered in 1903, which are in Aramaic, not Hebrew; and their religious beliefs appear to have been a mixture of Judaism and pagan polytheism. Archival records recovered include proof that they observed Shabbat and Passover, and also records of interfaith marriages. In perhaps the strangest reversal from pop pseudohistory, the papyri include evidence that at least some of the Jewish settlers at Elephantine owned Egyptian slaves."
Crux Australis
Permanent Resident
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 9794
Loc: Emerald City, Land of Oz
Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Originally Posted By: Crux Australis
Of course there were no Jews in Egypt at the time of the Pyramids being built. The time of major Pyramid building was 4500 years ago and before. The complex at Giza was completed around 2540BC - 4550 years ago.
Also, the Bible doesn't mention the isrealites building the pyramids.
Good call Crux.
The complex at Giza would have been over 1000 years old when the Jews were in Egypt. That is much, much longer than the US, Canada, Australia and most modern European countries have been around.
The pyramids were built by paid workers.
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