It's a constant source of amusement to watch believers kick and scratch and claw at anything they can to try and justify why they believe in unprovable unrealistic dogma..
See.. watch their minds explode trying to explain this:
God knows all even before it happens. Since God knows all even before it happens he knows the names of every person who will reject Him before they are even born. God allows said people to be born. God creates people for the sole purpose of going to hell.
which leads to..
God knows all even before it happens. Since God knows all even before it happens.. he knows the names of every person who will reject Him or accept Him before they are even born. Since God knows whether you will accept or reject him before you are even born.. free will does not exist.
God does not send people to hell they choose on thier own free will to either choose eternal life and live with God or to choose spiritual death and hell for God gave man agency to choose for himself.
there is no free will with a god that knows everything before it happens
unless you are claiming he doesn't
What part do you not understand about agency?
Agency was so important to God that he even allowed War in Heaven to happen over that very issue. The war continues to this very day on earth over the final fate of mankind.
God can forsee the cause and effect resulting from making goodly or wrongful choices but we are entirely free to choose for ourselves...God won't force us to do good and obey him But we are not free from personal accountabilty.
If we make wrongful choices we do so on our own violation and thus we suffer the consequences.
wrong.
If someone knows every move you are going to make in your entire life.. every decision.. every little fart.. you have zero control over your actions. Free will does not exist. You are merely acting out a predestined script.
_________________________
"Yes.. Men like sports.. Men watch the action movie.. they eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the busoms." - Xander Harris
"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior??" "Ya know.. I meant to but then I got really busy"
If someone knows every move you are going to make in your entire life.. every decision.. every little fart.. you have zero control over your actions. Free will does not exist. You are merely acting out a predestined script.
That is utterly false gumby...you are led to incorrectly believe that we are not to be held accountable for the choices we make in life. Lawyers for example have clogged up the court system for years over the issue of personal accountablty such as the woman who sued MacDonald's for millions of dollars because she spilt hot coffee on herself when the label on her cup clearly stated "caution ..hot"
Teenage girls left abandoned by thier boyfriends who couldn't deal with a pregnancy of thier own making as a result of unbridled sexual passion.
Do you choose to smoke cigarettes or not to smoke cigarettes? It must be one or the other and there must be an opposite to every choice we make.And there are consequences for choices we make we cannot escape from the resulting consequences of bad choices.
God is not to blame for our lack of wisdom and foolishness.we ultimately choose for ourselves our own destinies..God set forth guidelines for us that will help us to return to him...but he is not going to take us by the hand and force us to choose good or to heed his commandments.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
If someone knows every move you are going to make in your entire life.. every decision.. every little fart.. you have zero control over your actions. Free will does not exist. You are merely acting out a predestined script.
That is utterly false gumby...you are led to incorrectly believe that we are not to be held accountable for the choices we make in life. Lawyers for example have clogged up the court system for years over the issue of personal accountablty such as the woman who sued MacDonald's for millions of dollars because she spilt hot coffee on herself when the label on her cup clearly stated "caution ..hot"
Teenage girls left abandoned by thier boyfriends who couldn't deal with a pregnancy of thier own making as a result of unbridled sexual passion.
Do you choose to smoke cigarettes or not to smoke cigarettes? It must be one or the other and there must be an opposite to every choice we make.And there are consequences for choices we make we cannot escape from the resulting consequences of bad choices.
God is not to blame for our lack of wisdom and foolishness.we ultimately choose for ourselves our own destinies..God set forth guidelines for us that will help us to return to him...but he is not going to take us by the hand and force us to choose good or to heed his commandments.
We aren't discussing teenagers, lawyers or any other straw argument you are trying to make.
We are talking about your deity. A Deity with knowledge of every action made on the planet before the planet existed.
We are talking about a god who KNEW 9/11 would happen. Who KNEW the holocaust would happen and sat idly by doing nothing. When an all powerful being knows from the beginning of time atrocities that would take place.. and allows them to take place.. he is sadistic.
And when he already knows these events were going to happen the players in these events were nothing more than pawns on a chessboard. They had no choice. It was their lot in life to carry these events to fruition because your God chose to do nothing.
This is not my belief.. it is yours. I do believe everyone is responsible for their own actions.. your religion has no room for such free will BECAUSE of your God and his foreknowledge.
_________________________
"Yes.. Men like sports.. Men watch the action movie.. they eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the busoms." - Xander Harris
"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior??" "Ya know.. I meant to but then I got really busy"
If someone knows every move you are going to make in your entire life.. every decision.. every little fart.. you have zero control over your actions. Free will does not exist. You are merely acting out a predestined script.
That is utterly false gumby...you are led to incorrectly believe that we are not to be held accountable for the choices we make in life. Lawyers for example have clogged up the court system for years over the issue of personal accountablty such as the woman who sued MacDonald's for millions of dollars because she spilt hot coffee on herself when the label on her cup clearly stated "caution ..hot"
Teenage girls left abandoned by thier boyfriends who couldn't deal with a pregnancy of thier own making as a result of unbridled sexual passion.
Do you choose to smoke cigarettes or not to smoke cigarettes? It must be one or the other and there must be an opposite to every choice we make.And there are consequences for choices we make we cannot escape from the resulting consequences of bad choices.
God is not to blame for our lack of wisdom and foolishness.we ultimately choose for ourselves our own destinies..God set forth guidelines for us that will help us to return to him...but he is not going to take us by the hand and force us to choose good or to heed his commandments.
We aren't discussing teenagers, lawyers or any other straw argument you are trying to make.
We are talking about your deity. A Deity with knowledge of every action made on the planet before the planet existed.
We are talking about a god who KNEW 9/11 would happen. Who KNEW the holocaust would happen and sat idly by doing nothing. When an all powerful being knows from the beginning of time atrocities that would take place.. and allows them to take place.. he is sadistic.
And when he already knows these events were going to happen the players in these events were nothing more than pawns on a chessboard. They had no choice. It was their lot in life to carry these events to fruition because your God chose to do nothing.
This is not my belief.. it is yours. I do believe everyone is responsible for their own actions.. your religion has no room for such free will BECAUSE of your God and his foreknowledge.
Ah then you prefer a god who would force us to do his will..not unlike the offer Lucifer presented to the Grand Council in Heaven in the preexistence...to become our savior by making sure everyone returns to the Father even if he had to rob everyone of thier free will to accomplish it.
Had God robbed us of free will he would have stopped us from causing all these wars of our own making, he would have made us into living robots.
But we are not living robots. We are beings of free will to choose for ourselves...to choose good or to choose evil...to heed God or to reject God and heed the devil.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
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