And when have I ever called anyone a troll?

First time i heard the theory about companies having too much say in politics was from the late great George Carlin... i doubt many people would call him a traditionalist.

Throughout his campaign from I've hear Ron Paul say time and time again, how big company's have too much say in politics, from pharmaceuticals to indorsing people and bills and such... I highly doubt that many will call him an person that is against traditional values.

If two people people that are are both pretty far out there for representing opposite ideologies agree that companies are vying for too much power maybe they are on to something?

I was born in 1983, my biggest political fear is a novel called 1984... my votes and idea's all back the idea that freedom is a good thing.


Off topics rant:
this is going to be a long one so feel free to skip it i guess

Now i admit i don't really know which party has a donkey or an elephant as there logo... and frankly i don't care to. What i do care about is people making sense. People trying to keep things fair and honest. Too often i come here and see interesting topics dissolve mostly because it becomes a war of loyally to a politic party... no i admit i do have some pretty conservative backings, but by the same hand i like to be believe i'm fairly liberal as well... not asking for everyone to get along that's too much i think, i have a slight history on the forum as someone that is reasonable.

i'd gladly call you all my friends, hence why i try to think of each of you as people and not the parties your are so passionately trying to defend. Neither side is 100% right, either side is 100% wrong.. odds are both have issues. Odds are all of you could point out when and where the other party did something to make an enemy of you for life... all i guess i'm saying is that it's ok to love your party, just don't make it define you, your a person who's can be reasoned with.

we can all call politicians liars and corrupt... we're more than that, we're good honest folk trying to improve things. can we be wrong? sure, but the bottem line is everyone here is debating about who to make things better.

reason why i leave here so often is cause i see flame fests on what use to be my favorite forum and honestly it gets me down.

guess I'm just saying is yeah it's ok to disagree, it's OK to agree to disagree. It's not cool to forget the issues and just go, this person is being foolish and mock them... we're all better than that.

Haha! I've quoted him more than once since I started posting a few weeks ago. Some of his last words struck me as the most profound.


Someone tell me again why I should disregard his opinion because he was 'just a comedian'.

Because he was just a comedien that's all I see him as he was...sometimes he was funny sometimes he was right on the money and often he was wrong on a lot of things.... waxing his take on the social political issues of the day...and getting paid for it while entertaining people who shilled out good money to see him perform.

Carlin imo didn't give much of a rat's butt. He was the consumate cynic. He had never voted since 1972 nor was he much of a political or social activist. If he wanted to do something about making real change with the way of things in America don't you think he would have done so?

That's why I regard him as just a comedien and an entertainer.

,

Wow! So we're just screwed and there's not a damn thing we can do about it, eh?

Don't bother voting, don't bother volunteering for the candidate of your choice, don't bother calling or writing to your elected representatives and making your opinions known, screw even bothering to protest, hell... just roll over and die! There's nothing you can do about anything!

Now THERE'S a productive philosophy to live by!

No wonder this country is so fucked up!

And meanwhile, as if to defy Carlin's dismal take on America, there are lots eople who, starting from modest to next to no means, becoming millionaires and billionaires every year in this country.

Guess they didn't get Carlin's memo.

Seriously Feral, if this is what you actually believe I have seriously overestimated you.

Sure, crony capitalism is a huge problem in this country, and it has been for a very long time, going back to at least Jackson and his "spoils system" and the serious start of the first era of big central government.

But to take Carlin at face value is to simply surrender, just give up, go sit in a corner and wait for the end to come.

Is that how you live your life?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

"Wow" is usually the response I get when I post this quote, but I don't usually get refute. I get things like "Ah, he was just a comedian...I disregard his opinion because of said title."

Drama doesn't suit you, compadre. But again, and I've already made this point: participation like what you describe is based on assumptions that A) your vote actually counts, B) that if 'your candidate' is elected, they will abide by their promises, oath, or constituents' wishes, and C) that they actually have some power to wield. If the first two were even close to accurate, how would they then contend with judicial or executive declarations and orders?

Your implication is that I am unproductive? Because I do not participate in a broken political system?
And again, how is he wrong? Despite all of the rumor and musing regarding voter apathy, the data show that turnout in general elections is at its highest rate since 1972.
The result? Presidental approval rating of less than 50%, and that's higher than most.
Congress? 9%.

Again, implying that this 'apathy' is the cause of all our problems, that if we'd "only just vote, our problems would be solved." It turns into if "they'd only vote for my guy..."
I'm reminded of another quote, and I'm paraphrasing: "The definition of insanity is repeating something over and over again, expecting a different result."

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. He was speaking to influence, which you've already agreed is a huge problem. Many people, including Carlin, do get wealthy. Do they become that way by being loyal voters and employees? By seriously believing the fable that if they only participate, work hard enough and long enough, that they'll get a taste of that "good life"? You know the answer.
So let's take the other road. Hypothetically, you are your own boss. You think businesses fail for the most part because it's difficult to make money? Regulatory compliance takes up more time and expense than any other consideration; it becomes damn near impossible to profit doing business the way the state considers 'legitimate', and even then, you may have to bend rules. It becomes necessary to incorporate, necessary to have accountants and lawyers, necessary to go into debt, before even dealing with competition that, due to age, resource, or stated influence, may no longer have to deal with said regulation.
I'm not even speaking to getting rich. There are roadblocks in place and being placed to protect existing business and the state apparatus, using the legislature that you vote for.
Do it legit, do everything 'right', you are setting yourself up to fail. Do it the way an immigrant does it, or used to do it, you have one less hurdle. You might be ok. In fact, you can be that 'rising tide'.
You can live the dream.
And you can be the bane and rally call of all those 'Real Americans', who would deport their own grandparents if it meant they could keep their shitty job and pay for their cable TV. I'm speaking from experience here, and I say this without any hyperbole:
We are administering ourselves to death.

Estimation, assumption...you know by now how I regard these.

Yes...
It would be, if you only see two options.
Polarization is folly.

No...not even close.

This post is nearly at my phones limit, so I'll have to be brief, regretably.

I don't disregard it as a "comedian's opinion" as I am quite familiar with Carlin and his body of work. I just don't agree with it 100%. There is no question that much here is true.

But it's easy to point out the problem, any reasonably attentive person could do that.

The real work come in proposing a solution; something his rant leaves one believing is impossible, and something I do not accept - yet.



Getting honest reps elected is a start, and one has to start somewhere. The 2010 mid-term was a modest start, but if it ends there, then what you say above holds.



Sadly, our real problem is voter ignorance; something we can thank our government schools for. Letting government control curriculum, we get the expected results - pro-big govt myrmidons.



Not so much apathy as ignorance.



Sorry, at my phones limit; have to cut it here. Damn!

From his earlier work:

Take it as you will. I don't see this as a "joke", even if it is funny. I see it as an important exercise in thought.
And I don't agree with all he says. Primarily when I see firsthand how secondhand decisions can directly affect people.
One man says this, and some nod their heads. Another man says that, and others nod their heads. They vote, and no matter the outcome, they think they did their part, and raise their cards and stamps and stained thumbs like a badge of honor.
But when it becomes a serious problem, they assume no responsibility. That is my issue with the current system.
They become mired in this, deciding who next is gonna hold the hose that's filling the mud pit, and debate becomes as serious as an old man, yelling at his dog about the weather.
It never even occurs to most to question fundamental aspects of it, and is fundamentalism defined. That unwavering faith is a problem.
Your first instinct is to trust.
My first instinct is to question.

George Carlin has always been an enigma to me. I had a friend in high school who watched his stand-up religiously, and he (Carlin) was the first person to ever make me really question my reality. I've never considered him to be just a comedian, that's for sure.

Now do I agree with what he's said? I can honestly say yes and no. I think some of his stuff about people "loving" bad news, such as massive attacks in which people jump off buildings (eerie sentiments made before 9/11) were over the top. And it wasn't really his absolute lack of a melioric worldview that bothered me, it was that it seemed he wholly disregarded the achievements humanity has made, the genuine good it has done.

Nonetheless, he is certainly one of the most socially adroit thinkers of the past 50 years, and I think we ought to at least give his worldview a hear. I take him at his word when he said he was happy, that he was a "personal optimist." He was successful as hell, had a sense of humor, and had people in his life who loved him; why wouldn't he be happy?

As I've gotten older, one of the greatest lessons I've learned that it really is up to us to be happy. It's more than just a platitude. It is true. The more importance we put on things that are ultimately beyond our control, like global crises, politics, sports, the reality of an afterlife, the more disappointed we will be. Not to say we should evade participation in these things entirely (as Carlin might espouse) but we shouldn't become emotionally dependent on their outcomes. We need to determine what it is that we desire most, something realistically attainable, and go after it. Forget hiding under the mantra (aka excuse) of "being yourself"; if there's something in your life you need to change, do it. If society goes to shit, it goes to shit. Doesn't mean our life had the same result.

So anyway, I can't say I share George Carlin's exact worldview. But I can say that without reading/listening to his work, I wouldn't be the person I am today, and I would certainly be more naive.

Very well said. And you are right, people can choose to wake up and be happy.
It just gets difficult to live when so many meddle.
Liberty, right to breathe, Plymouth Pulpit, etc.