Indentured servants went into that by choice too. Maybe we should allow that again?

That's what alot of workers are now, glorified indentured servants. This time being indentured by debt.

Children have always been told that college is a must. Yet many college students come out with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and struggle to find jobs in their fields.

It is not "their choice" to work these jobs. Low pay jobs are also the most available jobs.

Or the family that was duped into thinking they can own an overpriced home for a similar rate of monthly rent. Yet can no longer make payments due to higher rates, or higher monthly expenses, or other factors like job loss.

Our parents and grandparents worked and actually saved money. Hell it only took one person to work and provide for a family of four. That is something lower classes can rarely do now. Money goes to housing, food, some entertainment costs, and alot of bills. Black Friday is a day we can finally splurge on some stuff that we can barely afford and live closer to the dream of what the upper classes live like.

Then by all means explain how the tech and competition cart gets in front of the horse that creates them.

It seems to me that at the heart of technology and competition are the PEOPLE who create it. So it is with the consumer - they are people first and foremost. The moral and religious beliefs of individual people do have a real impact on their decisions and behavior - just ask those rapacious Amish consumers.

Look, we've had consumerism for thousands of years. And throughout history, the most materialistic and avid of consumers were those who were least religious. For instance, there are countless examples of Popes, priests, monks and nuns who consumed extravagantly, drank to excess, and screwed like rabbits. These where people no longer believed in their religion. Likewise, there were many Popes, priests, monks and nuns who were pious and faithful to their religion and led abstemious, even ascetic lives.

All I'm saying here is that I think you have it backwards. I don't see how technology and consumerism can cause something like a diminishment of faith without the willing participation of individual people, whose decisions are based, in part, on their religious and/or moral values. (And before you go at it again, yes atheists can make "moral" decisions - but I'd rather not get so granular here, this is a broad and sweeping subject.)

I submit that people - not things - are at the heart of the secularization of society.

For instance, there is absolutely nothing in our constitution demanding the removal of all vestiges of religion or religious symbols from the public square. Were you more familiar with our history, you would know of our founders opinions on the importance of religion to the maintenance of civil society and the republic. They considered religion absolutely critical to the survival of our republic.

And yet today (and for the last 50 years or so) you have the ACLU attacking every single public expression of religion they can find. That has nothing to do with technology or consumerism. We've had an activist Supreme Court that has participated willingly in this anti-religious crusade on religion and religious symbolism in the public square (even though the very building in which they reside is full of religious symbolism); again, nothing to do with technology or consumerism.

These are PEOPLE making a conscious decision to secularize the public square - not things.

The cart is only in front of the horse if YOUR assumption is true. Saying that people are at the heart of it is simplistic. Of course they are! That doesn't mean that removing religion from public schools is the driver of increased consumerism.


But you have yet to prove that removal of religion from the public forum is the cause of increased consumerism.

Those were not simply people without religion. Those were hypocrites, liars, people who pretended at faith without having any.

Clarification: do you think I said that technology caused a diminishing of faith? I didn't.

That is a secondary issue.

I'm glad you agree.

And again, I am saying that secularization is not the issue. I am NOT saying that secularization is caused by technology. Simply that increased CONSUMERISM is driven by technology and increased competition.

Secularization is separation from god.When people decide to separate themselves from God and turn themselves away from his will and ways this leads us becoming more selfish, more materialistic and more carnal.




Religion that is pure religion teaches us about the golden rule, civility, manners but more importantly it teaches us to become more spiritual less selfish and less materialistic and it teaches us not to set our hearts on the vain things of the world.

Increasing consumerism and materialism has led us to become more selfish and greedy.Look at the results of what happens when parents indulge thier children with too much material things.. they become unruly and ungrateful...and this has a rippling effect on society as a whole. Parents cannot buy thier children love with material things....it never works.



Quite true Foob... Jesus made it very clear about his views about hypocrisy in the church. And not just the Roman Catholic Church but many who profess to be followers of Jesus but in truth they follow after thier own lusts. But those who are true discples of Christ who truly live the gospel are less likely to be consumer/materialistic oriented than those without any faith whatsoever.




The founding fathers of your country believed in the constitution which they drew up was inspired by God.They believed in the core principles of christianity which promotes liberty, freedom.What some of them questioned were the inaccuracies in some of the doctrines of various organized churches which deviated from what they believed God intended for his people.





Increased consumerism can lead us to become more materialistic minded and that leads us to become increasingly greedy and self-centered and this leads us away from being connected to God.

Oh, Lord!

More than you might want to believe.

Keep your proselytizing in the religious section. I'm trying to secularize the politics section.

That's a form of proselyting foob....in promoting the virtues of secularism.

Not promoting. Enforcing.