They don't have to be right foob. But one can believe in a intelligent designer and yet believe there is some kind of logic to it. You'd be surprised how many logicical,thinking incredibly brilliant scientists are out there who logically concluded that there is an intelligent design in the cosmos.

You certainly have ridiculed my beliefs...not to the degree that lucy or nblsavage does of course...but you do often question them because believing in an intelligent designer makes no logical sense but that's okay with me.

Maybe I come across sounding that I know everything but I really don't... anymore than you or Moonman do the only thing I can tell you both that I myself have come to that conclusion as many much more educated scientists and cosmoslogists have concluded that we are here for some unexplained and perhaps unknowable purpose and not just by some cosmic luck of the draw.

You will have to come to your own conclusion. If you believe that;s we are all here for to live for the now... for this limited existence... just because that's just how it happened that we die and cease to exist then fine...
it makes no sense to me but if it makes sense to that's fine too. I'm just trying to point out that for me logic dictates that there is more to this limited mortal existence.

For me this is where science comes to some point where it cannot answer the biggest questions and most likely never will...why are we here? Where do we come from?

That is where faith comes in for people like myself.

You need to learn the difference between questioning and ridiculing. Seriously, go back and read some of my replies to you, and try to honestly ask yourself what I'm saying. And that's the last I'll say on it. until you go back to insisting that your view is the only right one. Then we'll be back to square one. I wonder which one of us is Sisyphus, and which is the boulder?

I would say that can be applied to you as well.

Well, you did miss the point. You don't seem to have understood the point Wes was making or my response to it. So just keep in mind that your post here, and mine to Wes, represent separate conservations.

In any case, I'll respond to yours now:



To ask the question "why" is to ask for intent, so your question essentially boils down to: "What is the purpose of the universe.....if it has no purpose?"

Essentially, you're assuming there must be a purpose. Your post asks for the purpose of a few different things. A few different acts, a few different states.

As in, the ultimate purpose.

I'm going to echo foob and ask you: Why must be there some purpose, beyond the personal, in everything a man does? Or perhaps just for the universe itself, and then the act and feeling of love. But the question is the same, why must there be some ultimate purpose to it?

We just got incomprehensibly lucky then? I'm not so convinced.

Why then it must be a pure coincident that we are all here?

We simply are born into this world...grow up, work,eat,make friends fall in love learn and experience all we can until natural decay kicks in or we get killed in an accident die and simply cease to exist for all of existence in the end?

Is that all there is? That makes no sense at all.

Why was I for example born in a rich plentyful country rather than a famine stricken like Ethopia?

Not everything we do is predestined obviously we are able to make many choices that can improve our circumstances we are born into... but we do come into this world under circumstances beyond our control such as diabilties,like blindness or deafness, mental challenges and ultimately death itself and the latest technology out there cannot cure such afflictions.

For example I believe there is an unknown purpose for a child with certain afflictions...such as a disabilty of whatever degree of severity...to teach others...such as patience and unconditional love in others around him.That child is not someone who simply got the short end of the genetic gene-pool. Ask any parent who has a disabled child and they will tell you quite differently.

As far as incomprehensibly lucky, are you referring to that creationist idea that everything must either be formed randomly, that is, or be part of some grand purpose?

I haven't heard why there must be only two options, as far as that goes.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "coincidence" but I'll assume you mean "without purpose."

As I said before, I don't know why there must be some ultimate purpose. I also don't know why there must not be some ultimate purpose. Which is why I didn't say that, for your information. Of course, there is no purpose apparent, as in, from some intelligence. No greater intelligence is evident. But this is different from it being impossible that there is a greater intelligence, having a greater purpose.

You seem to be implying (or more) that Hawking has said that the universe created itself from nothing.

Might I ask for the text in which he says this?

I am not even sure what that means, for something to result from nothing.

And, on an unrelated point, it seems odd for a religious person to talk about the problems with such the claim, of something coming from nothing, because I've always been under the impression that such was a prime feature of your creation stories.

He stated this in his latest series "Curiosity" titled Did God create the Universe? Which aired in Canada on the Discovery Channel a couple of weeks ago.He was responding to an earlier show where he attempted to delve into the creation of the universe in which he said it isn't necessary for the universe to have been created by intelligent design despite which even he acknowledged the nececessity for the incredibly fine precision it would have took the cosmos from its earliest moments to be what it is today.

I never claimed God created the universe from literally nothing, as most christian denominations have interpreted the scriptures concerning the Creation in the Book of Genesis.

The fact that much of latter-day revelations including the revelation that God the Father has a physical tangible body for example, has been a controversial doctrine among the various sects under Christianity.

Modern-day prophets teach us that in reality... there is no end to matter and space and no end to space and matter.And no end to the number of heavens and kingdoms...even beyond this universe.

And this includes universes beyond this one which is why I stated that the multiverse proposal by some cosmologists is a plausible one....but an impossible one to prove.

I believe God commanded the elements to form the heavens and the worlds within including our planet. He is the supreme controller of this plane of existence including the cosmos we exist in.

It has also been stated that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.Matter can change from state into another such as water into ice or steam.

Hawking says in the episode that he thinks the cosmos could have been created from nothing without violating the laws of physics.

So how do you create a universe from nothing without violent the violating the laws of Nature?

In the past, you have claimed that many on these forums such as foobar, nblsavage, and I have said that something comes from nothing, or that the universe came from nothing. I, however, have not said that. Nor, as far as I know, has savage or foob. My suspicion is that you needed that to be the argument, because you might find it difficult to deal with some other claim. Therefore I must treat your claim that this man has also said such a thing with scepticism.

However, suspicions are not proof, so I will attempt to locate this program you speak of, and if he has actually said such a thing, I believe I will make a post about it.



Very well. I suppose this would avoid the logical problem of something from nothing.