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#3833367 - 05/24/12 08:22 PM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: silkylegs]
1oldminer Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 7297
Loc: Stopping the Juubi's revival
Originally Posted By: silkylegs
1oldminer-
"No one is saying that the doctors and surgeons were highly skilled in saving your sister's life...and I pray that she continues to do well and has a speedy recover."

Thank you for your offer of prayers for my sister, unfortunately, this would be pretty inneffectual as you do not even know who she is!

Prayer - Useful or Useless....in this case certainly useless!


No I don't know who your sister is but you are writing her off as to what she believes in as delusional nonsense.

There is a saying that there are no atheists in foxholes silky... when people whether they belive in god or not...are facing death they are very mindful of thier mortality and what lies ahead when they die.

Prayers are certainly not useless they often give one great comfort in times in great difficulty be it emotionally or medically speaking...even when the answers they seek don't come right away..sometimes we are required to wait for answer..it is a matter of putting your trust in God and submitting to his will... You scoff at it because you have little or no faith whatsoever..I daresay silky it is you who doesn't have faith in your sister's resolve to beat her cancer.

You may not believe in her faith in angel guiding the hands of the surgeons that helped save her life. But she certainly does...as a brother you ought to be more loving and supporting to her especially in light of what she is personally going through.


Edited by 1oldminer (05/24/12 08:24 PM)
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary.
To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas


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#3833453 - 05/24/12 10:08 PM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: 1oldminer]
JT Offline
Menounos Numero Uno

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 66272
Loc: Nueva York
Prayer is a psychological mindtrick. It helps in comforting. But it isn't like asking a Genie for a wish to come true. Whatever happens, will happen regardless. The outcome of whatever situation is rather determined by circumstances and the people involved (like doctors).
_________________________


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#3833556 - 05/24/12 10:54 PM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: JT]
Feral Offline
Taoiseach den fhoirm baineann

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 2121
Loc: Wandering, but not lost
The mind is a powerful thing. Prayer, or sincerely believing in betterment, might actually make you better. I believe it is related to other issues in science.
Placebo effect is very interesting:
Quote:
Several times a day, for several days, you induce pain in someone. You control the pain with morphine until the final day of the experiment, when you replace the morphine with saline solution. Guess what? The saline takes the pain away.

This is the placebo effect: somehow, sometimes, a whole lot of nothing can be very powerful. Except it's not quite nothing. When Fabrizio Benedetti of the University of Turin in Italy carried out the above experiment, he added a final twist by adding naloxone, a drug that blocks the effects of morphine, to the saline. The shocking result? The pain-relieving power of saline solution disappeared.

as is the "nocebo" effect, information about impending doom makes it more likely:
Quote:
We really need to recognize that this kind of human response is very well documented. Authoritatively telling people they are going to die can in itself be fatal.

You may know that Australian aborigines fear something called pointing the bone. A shaman shakes a bone at a person, sings a song, and soon after, the person dies. This is a specific example of a phenomenon generally referred to as hex death. A person is cursed by an authority figure and subsequently dies. According to medical studies, the person generally dies of dehydration, implying that they just give up. But the progression is very erratic, and shock symptoms may play a part, suggesting adrenal effects of fright and hopelessness. Yet this deadly curse is nothing but information, and it can be undone with information.

A friend of mine was an intern at Bellevue Hospital in New York when a 28-year-old man from Aruba came in saying he was going to die because he’d been cursed. He was admitted for a psychiatric evaluation and found to be normal, but his health steadily declined while he was in the hospital. My friend was able to rehydrate him, balance his electrolytes and give him nutrients, but nevertheless, the man worsened. He insisted that he was cursed and that nothing could be done to prevent his death.

My friend realized that this patient would, in fact, soon die. The situation was desperate. Finally, he told the patient that he, the doctor, was going to invoke his own powerful medicine to undo the curse, and his medicine was more powerful than any other. He then got together with the house staff, bought some head dresses and rattles, and danced around the patient in the middle of the night chanting what they hoped would be effective-sounding phrases. I think several of them were trying to remember their bar mitzvah.

The patient showed no reaction, but the next day, he began to improve. He went home a few days later, and I would say that my friend literally saved his life.


Most interesting to me is the effect of the mind and information on science itself:
Quote:
Assumption number one was that if a trial were managed correctly, a medication would perform as well or badly in a Phoenix hospital as in a Bangalore clinic. Potter discovered, however, that geographic location alone could determine whether a drug bested placebo or crossed the futility boundary. By the late '90s, for example, the classic antianxiety drug diazepam (also known as Valium) was still beating placebo in France and Belgium. But when the drug was tested in the US, it was likely to fail. Conversely, Prozac performed better in America than it did in western Europe and South Africa. It was an unsettling prospect: FDA approval could hinge on where the company chose to conduct a trial.

Drug studies have shown more than once that a benzodiazepine such as Diazepam (again, Valium) won't work at all if the patient doesn't know they are getting it.
There is more than sampling variance here, and it fascinates the hell out of me.
It brings to mind things like The Observer Effect in quantum physics, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, etc.
_________________________


I am the rock on the eternal shore
Crash against me and be broken



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#3834713 - 05/25/12 07:45 PM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: Feral]
dblboggie Offline
Urban Myth

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 49001
Loc: Nowhere... I'm a Myth!
Fascinating post Feral. goodjob
_________________________

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#3835586 - 05/26/12 04:50 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: dblboggie]
silkylegs Offline
Hot Prospect

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Between Miley's thighs
re 1oldminer-
"You may not believe in her faith in angel guiding the hands of the surgeons that helped save her life. But she certainly does...as a brother you ought to be more loving and supporting to her especially in light of what she is personally going through."

How dare you suggest that i am not supportive or loving!!!
Just who do think you are to imply such a thing......

and as for this-
"Prayers are certainly not useless they often give one great comfort in times in great difficulty be it emotionally or medically speaking...even when the answers they seek don't come right away..sometimes we are required to wait for answer..it is a matter of putting your trust in God and submitting to his will... You scoff at it because you have little or no faith whatsoever..I daresay silky it is you who doesn't have faith in your sister's resolve to beat her cancer. "

it was my belief that support and faith from myself and the rest of my family that was of some help to get her through, NOT prayers from pious interfering believers in mythical 'creators' such as yourself!

You are entitled to your beliefs but you are NOT entitled to assume that I dont care about MY sisters wellbeing.
You really are a self righteous, patronizing fool who assumes WAY too much!!

TRY ENGAGING BRAIN BEFORE OPENING MOUTH...


Edited by silkylegs (05/26/12 04:52 AM)

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#3835617 - 05/26/12 06:20 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: silkylegs]
1oldminer Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 7297
Loc: Stopping the Juubi's revival
Originally Posted By: silkylegs
re 1oldminer-
"You may not believe in her faith in angel guiding the hands of the surgeons that helped save her life. But she certainly does...as a brother you ought to be more loving and supporting to her especially in light of what she is personally going through."

How dare you suggest that i am not supportive or loving!!!
Just who do think you are to imply such a thing......

and as for this-
"Prayers are certainly not useless they often give one great comfort in times in great difficulty be it emotionally or medically speaking...even when the answers they seek don't come right away..sometimes we are required to wait for answer..it is a matter of putting your trust in God and submitting to his will... You scoff at it because you have little or no faith whatsoever..I daresay silky it is you who doesn't have faith in your sister's resolve to beat her cancer. "

it was my belief that support and faith from myself and the rest of my family that was of some help to get her through, NOT prayers from pious interfering believers in mythical 'creators' such as yourself!

You are entitled to your beliefs but you are NOT entitled to assume that I dont care about MY sisters wellbeing.
You really are a self righteous, patronizing fool who assumes WAY too much!!

TRY ENGAGING BRAIN BEFORE OPENING MOUTH...


I think you're overeacting to my statement bub...

I never said that you didn't love or care about your sister silky but you clearly stated that her beliefs as silly superstious nonsense and that what she attributes to prayers in helping the doctors save her life is wishful delusional thinking.

Are you implying that she is in some kind of David Koresh type cult? Is that a good way to show love support as a brother by looking down on her faith in prayers? Not to me it does. What you are saying to me "look don't get me wrong I love my sister I care for her but I think she's stupid for believing in a magical invisable sky daddy."

Prayers can and do indeed work!!

Let me briefly relate a recent and true event that happened to one of the members of my church ward like your sister he was at death's door from a flesh eating disease that started in the oral cavity from an absessed tooth..the disease was progressing at an alarming rate just prior to his operation to save his life...he was given a blessing and much prayer and fasting was done by others on his behalf.

When the operation was done the doctor told the man's wife that he had never been a believer in prayers, angels, God etc..but he said to her with all seriousness that he felt an invisable presence guiding his hand to the correct spot in the neck during the surgery.

That man's life was saved the flesh eating disease was erradicated and he has made a complete and full recovery..the only thing he sacrificed were the removal of his tonsils and teeth.

Can prayers work? They can certainly help in this case.


Edited by 1oldminer (05/26/12 06:24 AM)
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary.
To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas


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#3835655 - 05/26/12 09:08 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: 1oldminer]
cobalt Offline
Transition Metal

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 9812
Loc: Birmingham
If one truly believes in the existence of supernatural beings and an afterlife and talking snakes and what not, it makes perfect sense that prayers could have placebo effect, especially in conditions that are related to stress, anxiety, depression or other psychological difficulties. Or mitigate the psychological impact of another disease and condition. In that sense prayer could help an individual if he/she herself prayed, and/or if he/she was aware of other people praying for her.

But that could also be a double-edged sword, as Feral's post above suggests, whereby someone with such zealous supernatural beliefs could imagine themselves to be in peril from non-existent threats that would not necessarily occur to someone not indoctrinated with notions of hell and original sin and bogeymen and voodoo curses, etc.
_________________________
I change shapes just to hide in this place
But I'm still, I'm still an animal

Avy by Boones! laugh

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#3835745 - 05/26/12 11:26 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: Crux Australis]
misterdick Offline
Hot Prospect

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: Crux Australis
Depends what the purpose of prayer is? Prayer is mainly about about communication with God not about asking and getting things.

People who see prayer as asking and getting things trivialize it's purpose.

What else do you do? Discuss the weather? What's on at the local theatre?
(PS no apostrophe in it's)


Edited by misterdick (05/26/12 11:36 AM)

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#3835748 - 05/26/12 11:29 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: silkylegs]
misterdick Offline
Hot Prospect

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: silkylegs
My sister recently was operated on for mouth cancer, she was given a 5% chance of survival, well she thankfully did and still is surviving.
She puts this down to her church members prayers...personally, my thanks go to some VERY skilled and dedicated surgeons!!

Exactamundo. Pleased your sister was in the 5% and not the 95%.

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#3835766 - 05/26/12 11:45 AM Re: Prayer - Useful or Useless [Re: misterdick]
misterdick Offline
Hot Prospect

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 138
Sometimes you see athletes/sportsmen crossing themselves after a score or a good result. It would seem that they feel that god has personally intervened - presumably, because the competition was just not holy enough or didn't pray quite so prettily - to give them the result.

If that seems feasible to you then prolly it will seem feasible that prayer will cure cancer. To me it seems spectacularly smug and ridiculous.

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