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#2368438 - 12/15/09 11:31 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: WesMordine]
tgas2010 Offline
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A hypothetical question then:

In what situation could a rational human being ever justify the execution of one child from every family of your enemy?

Why not just kill Pharaoh instead?
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#2368493 - 12/16/09 12:22 AM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: tgas2010]
WesMordine Offline
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When your enemy has gone as far as ordering to kill all males of a generation for population control.

And after giving him 9 lesser opportunities to surrender without him getting the hint that his nation's oppression of the captives is at an end.
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#2369046 - 12/16/09 01:15 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: 1oldminer]
Kthulhu Offline
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Originally Posted By: 1oldminer
Originally Posted By: Kthulhu
You know, as much power as you (and many others like you) assign to Satan, I'm not really sure if your brand of Christianity qualifies as monotheistic anymore.


Then I'm afraid you either don't take Satan seriously or severely underestimate his influence in the hearts of people.

The evidence of his influence is vividly clear when you see the wickedness in people's hearts especially in theses latter-days; lust,infidelity,dishonesty, greed, hatred, envy, murder, etc with themselves and each other.

Most people, including even a few christians have become complacecent when it comes to the devil.

And whether or not you believe it is just some wild fairytale, the devil is very real. Evil exists just as Good exists Like the wind you cannot see it, but you know it is there, the same goes for the influence of both God and the devil in the hearts of people through thier chosen actions...be they good or be they evil.


I'm not sure you understood what I said. I realize that you are ascribing enormous amounts of power to Satan. In fact, I would say that you are arguing for so much power for Satan that your belief system is no longer monotheistic...it is composed of two gods...Yahweh, the good of "good"; and Satan, the god of evil.

If you also argue that each of the parts of Yahweh's supposed trinity count an separate entities, you've got a whole pantheon going. Just for shits and giggles, I'll ascribe the alignment system from Dungeons and Dragons to them...

Yahweh, the Father...Lawful Evil
Jesus, the Son...Lawful Good
The Holy Spirit...Neutral
Satan...Chaotic Evil


Edited by Kthulhu (12/16/09 03:22 PM)

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#2369985 - 12/17/09 12:26 AM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: WesMordine]
tgas2010 Offline
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Originally Posted By: WesMordine
When your enemy has gone as far as ordering to kill all males of a generation for population control.

And after giving him 9 lesser opportunities to surrender without him getting the hint that his nation's oppression of the captives is at an end.


An eye for an eye, eh? That sounds more like something an angry man would do, not a wise and benevolent god, createor of all mankind (including Egyptians.)

Besides, why not torture Pharaoh instead of his people? It's just plain inefficient not to go right to the source of the problem.
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#2370530 - 12/17/09 01:15 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: tgas2010]
Kthulhu Offline
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That brings up a point...God's racism. Supposedly he created all mankind, yet in the Bible he refers to the Jews as his "chosen people" all the time. Kind of a jackass way to behave, ain't it?

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#2371307 - 12/17/09 09:00 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: Kthulhu]
1oldminer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kthulhu
That brings up a point...God's racism. Supposedly he created all mankind, yet in the Bible he refers to the Jews as his "chosen people" all the time. Kind of a jackass way to behave, ain't it?


God is a racist? Really kthulhu you really don't understand what the scriptures tell you.

God's "chosen people" the Isrealites was not based on a racial issue, they were a covenant people in which God promised unto Abraham a multitude of nations, to be a "peculiar people" that is set apart from the ways of the world.

From the 12 sons of Jacob sprang many nations including the ancestors of the european peoples and the north American Native people, through the sons of Joseph.

Jew, gentile and anyone regardless of ancestry who takes Jesus into his/her life can also partake the blessings of being numbered among the sons/daughters of God.

Even atheists like you.
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To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas


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#2371414 - 12/17/09 09:19 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: tgas2010]
WesMordine Offline
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Originally Posted By: tgas2010
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
When your enemy has gone as far as ordering to kill all males of a generation for population control.

And after giving him 9 lesser opportunities to surrender without him getting the hint that his nation's oppression of the captives is at an end.


An eye for an eye, eh? That sounds more like something an angry man would do, not a wise and benevolent god, createor of all mankind (including Egyptians.)

Besides, why not torture Pharaoh instead of his people? It's just plain inefficient not to go right to the source of the problem.


Assuming for a moment that you do believe God exists, then you'd be making another mistake: thinking that God does not act in justice and does not know what is in the hearts of men.

God is the perfect judge. He knows what is in the hearts of men, and will never punish an innocent according to His perfect point of view, not our petty "morality" that justifies occupations of foreign nations, economical exploitation, pornography, etc.

You also make the mistake of treating God as an equal to yourself. God is not an equal. He owes us NOTHING. Were it not for His will, Egyptians wouldn't have had firstborn at all. Ultimately He can do whatever He so pleases to all humankind, because He created it.

He doesn't need a pitiful human being's permission to kill whoever He deems just to do so.

And if you don't believe in Him, then you're just making this whole rhetoric to screw with believers. Some may feel threatened by it, or stumble because of this pitiful appeal to the wrongfulness of God's actions...

If they do, they do not know the God they worship, but, as Jesus said, "We worship that which we know".
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#2372225 - 12/18/09 01:31 AM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: WesMordine]
tgas2010 Offline
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Originally Posted By: WesMordine
Ultimately He can do whatever He so pleases to all humankind, because He created it....

He doesn't need a pitiful human being's permission to kill whoever He deems just to do so.


And that's pretty much the problem, isn't it? It appears that God's morality is incomprehensible at best, and unworthy of us human beings at worst.

Surely the Bible - and religions - can come up with a better reason for doing things than "because I said so."
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#2372531 - 12/18/09 08:25 AM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: tgas2010]
WesMordine Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 9653
Loc: In a country with no army =)
Quote:
And that's pretty much the problem, isn't it? It appears that God's morality is incomprehensible at best, and unworthy of us human beings at worst.


It isn't. You can, if you have not already decided and you study the whole book instead of focusing on what you don't understand.

There are millions of human beings that do comprehend God's elevated morality, thanks to their diligent study and their humility.
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#2372890 - 12/18/09 03:20 PM Re: Why not kill Pharoah? [Re: WesMordine]
Kthulhu Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1466
Loc: R'lyeh
If I were to have a son, that would meant that I would have created him (albeit with some help). But if I randomly decide to kill that son, it's still considered murder.

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