The use of radioactive uranium in Israeli military operations- An international humanitarian law perspective

Source: Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) < http://www.palestinercs.org/ >
Date: Friday, October-30-2009
By: Mutasem Awad

In a recent exclusive interview with Al-Jazeera Satellite Channel, Professor Christopher Busby from the European Committee on Radiation Risk, announced the results of his research and analysis having examined air and soil samples in the Gaza Strip months after the 22 days of Israeli military operations there had ceased.

Prof. Busby is one of the most prominent and widely respected radiation experts in the world, and an accredited witness on international fora such as the UN. In the past, he has testified on the impact of weapons used in wars in Iraq, Kosovo and Lebanon. The Israeli authorities prevented Professor Busby from entering the occupied Gaza Strip to undertake the necessary analyses, but with the help of other physicians he was able to obtain the samples he needed.

The professor said that he had obtained two items to analyze, one of which was a filter from an ambulance covered with dust, and the second was some soil from a hole created by an Israeli bomb. He stated that the analysis showed the filter to contain a degree of uranium, and that the soil sample contained a high degree of enriched uranium. Analysis also showed a high degree of zinc, chrome, and niobium in the air. This is not the first analysis carried out by Professor Busby; he also discovered a high rate of uranium in Lebanon after examining samples from the area in the wake of the Israeli aggression of July 2006.

Professor Busby said, "the real concern is that people can inhale uranium, and this can lead to diseases and health problems, including congenital deformities in children…" If there is too much uranium in the air, there is a danger of pregnant women giving birth to deformed children, the possibility of children with various types of cancer and an increasing number of cancer cases among adults. This was apparent in Iraq and among people who worked in Kosovo in areas where enriched uranium was used.

Professor Busby noted that he had faced great difficulty in finding a laboratory to do the necessary analysis of the Gazan samples, indicating that there had been a strong Israeli influence on the laboratories, to such an extent that some of those who did agree to do the analysis, refused to present the results, according to Professor Busby.

The consequences of the radiation risks posed by uranium may continue for generations. Exposure to radiation can cause genetic defects, which can put future generations at risk of cancer even if they have not been in contact with the original polluted area.

The recent Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip, violated the basic rules and customs of war. Every supposedly protected group in Gaza was a target of Israeli occupation rockets and shells.

The St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which prohibited the use of certain kinds of explosive projectiles set out direct rules and norms to restrict the manufacturing and use of these weapons. These rules and norms became international customs, based on which the use of some weapons was prevented. Examples are the prevention of the use of poisonous gas in 1925, the use of biological weapons in 1972, and of chemical weapons in 1993. Restrictions on the use of land mines were also included in the Ottawa Convention in 1997, and at the end of 2008, states signed the Oslo Convention preventing cluster ammunitions.

In his report, Professor Busby clearly indicates that the weapons Israel used in Gaza exceeded the objective of war, which is to destroy the military might of the other party. The number of civilian victims and the destruction of non-military private and public properties all indicate that the internationally prohibited excessive use of force was used, as well as weapons which do not distinguish between military and civilian targets, causing unnecessary suffering and having long term negative impact on the health of civilians and the environment.

Paragraph "C" in rule 12 of the study prepared by the International Committee of the Red Cross on the customary International Humanitarian Law, prohibits indiscriminate attacks which have undefined impact and which Article 85 of the Additional Protocol of 1977 consider to be grave breaches. Rule 70 of the study prohibits the use of any means of war that may cause unwarranted injuries or pains. Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, considers the intentional causing of severe suffering, or the inflicting of serious harm on physical safety and health as a grave breach. Rule 45 of the study, prohibits the use of any means of war which aims to, or is expected to cause extreme, prevalent and long term harm to the natural environment. Article 55 of the Additional Protocol also prevents parties to the conflict from using weapons and methods which are expected to inflict harm on the natural environment and the health of the population or their survival.

So how can Israel justify the use of weapons containing uranium and radiation harmful to humankind…how can Israel justify the use of weapons that expose a population to radiation and maximize the potential for cancer and deformed fetuses? How can they explain that to future generations of children in Gaza whose lives will continue to be endangered?

The international community took a step forward at the end of last year, by signing the Oslo Agreement which prevents all state parties from using, producing, transferring and stockpiling cluster ammunitions and which urges the destruction of stockpiles. The Agreement also established a framework for international cooperation and assistance in achieving this objective and in the provision of sufficient care and rehabilitation for the victims of cluster bombs, the cleaning of polluted areas and to promote public education to restrict their dangers.

We hope a similar initiative will be taken to establish an international convention to prohibit the manufacture and use of radioactive weapons containing uranium or any other radiant material that cause danger to the health and safety of civilians during military operations.

END Copyright © Palestine Red Crescent Society

http://www.palestinercs.org/

and when the palistinians stop suicide bombing israeli school kids, i might give a crap.

no, on second thought, i will never give a crap what the israelis do to palistine. Whatever it is, the palistinians deserve it.

I can't imagine a lot of Israeli know or approve of what their government is doing to Palestinians because state terror and violence (and utter disregard for humanitarian concerns) is quite difficult to justify when you want the world to believe that you occupy the higher moral ground.

Israel DOES have the moral high ground, they could go around shooting random palistinians int he head, and the would STILL have the moral high ground

That's extremist mentality. I imagine that's how the extremists responsible for 9/11 felt. Violence justifying violence, "victim" identity, and an incorruptible sense of self disconnected from any detrimental actions committed.

Incidents like this seem to suggest that elements within the Israeli military have a diminished regard for Palestinian life. A certain number of Palestinian casualties is considered 'acceptable' collateral damge. That said, I can't help thinking that the entire Gaza campaign was badly conducted from a military point of view. For instance, if the US Army and Air Force had waged the same campaign, I don't think there would have been so many civilian casualties.

Of course, we should remember that Palestinian terrorists have a complete disregard for Israeli life. But they are, uh, sort of... terrorists, so you would probably take that as given.

the difference is that the terrorists are crazy nutjobs, the israelis aint.

Kicked your dog, did they? Bastards.

"Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – ("Kill them all! Surely the Lord discerns which are his.")
-attrib. Arnaud-Amaury

How do they have the moral high ground?
Show some of your expert knowledge!

are you THAT [censored] stupid that you need it explained to you how the palistinians are the bad guys?

No, I'd just like to hear your version, or is backing up your point too much to ask to of you?

He may not need it explained but I do............... and come to think of it, most of the rest of the world would like to know why "the palistinians are the bad guys"

hmmm, lets see.

Side "A"

they ANNOUNCE when they are comming, they go out of thier way to avoid civilian casualties, and they only attack in self defense

Side "M"

They strap explosives to kids, and send them into school yards, outside markets, into bus stations and remote detonate

Side "A"

attacks in self defense

Side "M"

vows daily to not "defeat" Side "A", but to exterminate them

Side "A"
guys with guns wear uniforms, and stand out in the open

Side "M" headquarters themselves inside a MOSQUE, or a HOSPITAL



if you cant tell the difference, you need more help than I can give you

seriously, screw the moral relativism, the palistinians are the BAD GUYS and the rest of the world must be a bunch of mouth breathing mongoloids if they cant see it.

support for Palistine is, IMO about 75% pure anti-semitism

So bombing Arab buildings in order to clear the land so that new Israeli settlements can be built on that groud is in "self-defense"?



http://atheism.about.com/library/world/AJ/bl_IsraelTerror.htm

You'd be surprised to know that Israel has its terrorist groups just like Palestine does.

Matter of fact, I recall an incident where 3 jews parked a van filled with explosives next to a school, planning on detonating them during morning rush hour. Luckily, they were caught in the act.



A full blown invasion with extreme military force is self-defense against a terrorist group??



That's for extremist Arab terrorist groups, and the same goes for extremist Jewish terrorist groups.



So does the Palestinian/Egyptian/etc. army, it's the terrorist groups that use guerilla warfare and that goes for Arab and Jewish groups.



Jewish terrorist groups establish their headquarters in school, hospital, etc. and also their place of worship and other public buildings.



I think it's you that can't tell the difference because you've obviously been listening to the Mainstream media too much, they tend to give a very bias reporting on this whole conflict.



The Palestinians are the bad guys because of the terrorists? What about the jewish terrorists? Hell, what about the extreme religious terrorists here in the US?



Bullshit. Support for Palestine is because of international law. NOBODY makes apologies for terrorists, etc. but when thousands of innocent people die because of Israeli expansion and occupation, that's a different story.
Nobody is denying Israel it's claim on the "occupied" territory, but when it comes to flattening and bombing Arab schools, etc. it's clear where the lines are.

it isnt israeli expansion, it is ISREALI land that they won as war booty.

and how pathetic are you? YOU OWN LINK :

"Several small Jewish groups"

nothing large, or organized, but several SMALL groups, as of 1988, and you compare that to HAMMAS??

seriously, you must be stoned, no one as stupid as you sound could figure out how to turn on a computer

you actually make KENTUCKY dumber on average, and THAT is saying something............

I guess I missed the part where it's says that you can flatten Schools, Hospitals, etc. just because you won the land in war.


Yeah, several small Jewish groups. Hammas may be larger, but still doesn't apply to ALL of Palestine, which is something your little Peas brain can't understand.

So now you're calling Kentucky dumb? From what I've seen on here and judging by your sentence structure, punctuation, and spelling in general, you'd fit in pretty well around here. I'd say... maybe Hazard, KY? One of the Meth Capitals of the world?

IF you allow people to set up rocket teams in your school, yeah, you ruin the risk of that school getting flattened,

the so called palistinians COULD turn on the Hammas types and handle it themselves, but that would require actually wanting to live in peace

actually Slick, Hammas DOES apply to all of palistine SINCE THEY ELECTED HAMMAS TO THE RULING PARTY

once again, you are either too stupid to be allowed to breed or lying.

As if they're allowed to set it up in schools. It's not hard to force entry into a school, you know!

And those schools getting flattened were not occupied by terrorists, they were simply in the way of new Israeli expansion settlements.

So does Obama apply to ALL of the US since you elected Obama?

Either you're too dumb to actually think before acting, or you're making yourself look like an idio on purpose.

OMG, irony overload!

and another drive by post, devoid of substance by tgas, seriously, the infestation of worthless leftist leaning posters here is enough to make an honest man ill

How about addressing my post then, Grub?

ok then,
you are gonna lose the "isreali expansion" arguement with me since it is ISREALI LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE

they have every right to build whatever they want to there.

so that dog doesnt hunt buddy.

But Israel is subject to international law just as much as Paletine is.

Demolishing Arab schools in order to make room for new Israeli settlements is illegal, not to mention immoral.

Imagine China taking over your county. They won it fair and square, so they decide to flatten your local hospital and school and build houses for the Chinese to live in. Now you have no hospital to go to, no school to send your children to, but the Chinese, they have both of those things.
How would you like that?

I understand that Israel is in an extremely tough situation in the Middle East, but I think that Israel's actions do not contribute anything to trying to make Peace so that Arabs and Jews can live in safety.

Of course, nobody will ever be able to stop Hammas from trying to wipe Israel of the map, but if Israel and Palestine come to terms, the 2 governments could work together to capture the terrorists, which would result in better public safety.

NO ONE is really subject to international law, since each country is it's own soveriegn.

using the "it is immoral" arguement is pointless, since morality is fluid, and there is no common moral ground, among any two peoples.

illegal isnt true either

"Imagine China taking over your county. They won it fair and square, so they decide to flatten your local hospital and school and build houses for the Chinese to live in. Now you have no hospital to go to, no school to send your children to, but the Chinese, they have both of those things.
How would you like that?"

it sucks to be the loser, the world isnt always nice, FIGHT HARDER, FIGHT TO WIN, and you wont have this problem

or, in other words, be more like America

I mean, seriously, might is right? You're actually arguing that?

Wow, polysyllabic and everything!

I'm sure any conservatives posting in this forum are so very proud to call you one of their own.

What moral high ground? The illegal Jewish settlements they have built and continue to build in Jerusalem in violation of International Law?

Grubber is the typical NeoCon, he hates every nation that isn't America and he thinks they should all be killed.

The West Bank wasn't Israel's land in 1948 and Lebanon isn't Israel's land either.

Oh really? Baruch Goldstein was an American born Israeli physician who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in the city of Hebron, killing 29 Muslims at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque (within the Cave of the Patriarchs) and wounding another 150 in a shooting attack.

He has no arguments, it is his nation's team gin the other fella's nation's team, his views aren't exactly complex.

land that they won as war booty. Me old friend........... there is no such legal thing as "war booty" that's why the US helped to bring the UN into being to stop the criminal occupation of another counties land............. and which is why Israel was branded as a criminal nation by the UN way back in 1949 (when it broke out from the boarders dawn up for it by the UN) and the reason........... the only reason why Israel was protected back in 1949.......... and the next 60 years was cos America used it's veto to over rule the UN.................... America's veto never did or can America veto ever give of the occupied lands to Israel as "war booty"

you compare that to HAMMAS? Me old friend........... by "HAMMAS" I take you mean the legal and democratic elected government of Palestinian??????????????????

Imagine China taking over your county. I think me old friend is talking about Tibet............... and although China may occupy Tibet is doesn't legally own Tibet......... just ask the UN or America

in other words, be more like America I think me old friend is talking about Bush's illegal occupation of Iraq and Somalia and Afghanistan.

but just like China's illegal occupation of Tibet........... America's illegal occupation of Iraq and Somalia and Afghanistan........... doesn't give it one inch of legal "war booty"

Every country that has vouched to adhere and protect international laws is subject to them, that's the whole point of the UN.

So you're saying that you would have no problem with China coming in and throwing a couple of Nukes on you because they're stronger and better??



Remember, international law doesn't mean sh!t. Only when one wants to invade another country for breaking those same laws that the US doesn't care about.

this is a perfect example of why i think liberals are all dumber than a box of rocks





actually, it is. there have been a few more wars since then, and the thing is, when you LOSE a war, you LOSE land, the guy that WINS the war, WINS the land

i swear you guys just sit around telling yourselves how bad the us is, how bad israel is, the funny thing is, it is totally High School

the US is the best thing going, has been for 200 years

in the middle east, No country is better, has it better, has happier citizens, or a better economy than Israel.

you guys sound like the AP class nerds in high school bitching about how the sports guys are all dumb, the cheerleaders are all slutty, etc, etc

total sour grape syndrome.

Thank you! That may be the nicest thing you've said in here ever.

The only reason why Israel is "better" is because the US pumps billions of Dollars up it's ass annually.
Why do you think Israel hasn't been crushed by it's surrounding countries?

in the middle east, No country has it's economy is under written by America to the tune of Billions of dollars every year for the last 60 years then Israel.

in the middle east, No country is so well protected by America then Israel.

we may sound like the AP class nerds to you but you still sound like the jack booted bully we have all grown to love and admire

Israel has the 14th largest economy IN THE WORLD, and they have kicked the living [censored] out of the arabs everytime the rags have gotten stupid enough to get froggy for the last 50 years

No bubbles, Isreal is where it is because of its industriousness of its people,not just because it recieves aid from the US.Not only that it is the only democracy in the middle east.

Maybe if Isreal's arab nieghbours spent less time focusing thier energy and resources on arming themselves to the teeth against Isreal and remaining in thier hatred and envy of thier jewish nieghbour, they would likely be better off economically
and politically.

"Rags"?!

The point you are making does not help your argument. Israel does have a booming economy and powerful army. But this simply means that it really does not need US financial help in billions of dollars every year, not to mention the constant flow of arms. Israel is getting paid for its strategic location to US, not because it needs it. Given the hostility between Jews in Israel and the Arabs in neighboring countries and Palestine, Israel is more like a liability than an asset.

I'm sorry, we aren't allowed to call people unpleasant names based on their nationality in here.

Oh wait a minute, yes we are. False alarm. Carry on making us proud to be Americans.

When I read hateful trash like that I wonder if you even finished high school.




That's blatantly wrong. How did you even arrive at that figure? Perhaps you meant 41st?

Stable government and possibly democracy are very important in Israel's success, yes. But let's drop this 'industriousness of the people' stuff that seems to imply non-Israelis are somehow lazy.

For the record Israel has received over $100bn in direct US aid since it was created in 1948, although at the same time the US has given aid to other countries in the region, and continues to do so. Israel has been the largest single recipient.



Intriguingly Israel is actually entitled to spend a proportion of its US aid on buying military equipment, much of which it buys from the US. Israel has spent billions of dollars buying US military equipment and technology.

Acccording to US statistics Israel has the 6th highest defence spending in the world as a proportion of GDP. By comparison, Iran is 67th and Lebanon, which Israel invaded in 2006, is 45st. Even when factoring in Iran's larger economy, Israel still spends significantly more. There are no true spending figures for the Palestine authority as Palestine is not granted status as a separate state. Israel controls much of Palestine's taxation policy and currently refuses to pay millions of dollars of Palestinian tax revenues generated since 2006. So much for the industriousness of the people.

Here's something to read for you all:

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/10871.pdf

And I quote the first sentence out of it:

"Israel is not economically self-sufficient,
and relies on foreign assistance and borrowing
to maintain its economy. Since 1985, the
United States has provided $3 billion in grants
annually to Israel. Since 1976, Israel has been
the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign
assistance, and is the largest cumulative recipient
since World War II. In addition to U.S.
assistance, it is estimated that Israel receives
about $1 billion annually through philanthropy,
an equal amount through short- and
long- term commercial loans, and around $1
billion in Israel Bonds proceeds."

So yes, Israel's wealth is ONLY to US funding. What industry does Israel have? They don't even have enough room to supply enough food for all their citizens, they're LOCKED into this small country, surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. How could they be self-sufficient and so militarily strong as they are today?

Israel is only still present because the US heavily supplies it with weapons and other Military equipment that are FAR superior to the neighboring Arab countries' Military equipment.

Next time you see a video of Israeli Military action, pay attention that the things they use/drive/fly, I guarantee you that they're American made.

That's because we don't have a moderator in here.

He got you there, Grubber.

This from Bank of Korea...


And Wikipedia has Israel at 49 or 50... depending on which category you look at.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

That little bit of industry would never make up for the economy that Israel has today.
I didn't say Israel doesn't have industry, but you cannot say that Israel owes it all to itself.

What can you expect from a country with a population of only over 7 million people?
They simply cannot compete in the world with economies like Germany, US, Japan, etc.

It's utterly clear that Israel owes ALL of it's freedom, wealth and ability to live in such a hostile neighborhood largely to the US and other Western nations.
I don't know why you're trying to deny that, it's a proven FACT.

lol

Not denying anything. I don't know what everyone's obsession with Israel is. It's almost unhealthy.

According to Jewish Virtual Library, Israel Ranked 15th by WEF's Global Competitiveness Index.

More:

Israel jumped from 23rd place in 2005 to 15th place on the World Economic Forum’s (WEF) 2006 Global Competitiveness Index, outranking Canada, Austria, France, Australia, Belgium, and Ireland, which follow it in descending order. The United States fell from first to sixth place.

The WEF uses nine groups of criteria to calculate a country’s competitiveness – macroeconomic policy, market efficiency, business sophistication, technological readiness, innovation, infrastructure, health and primary education, higher education and training, and institutions. By affecting an economy’s productivity, the WEF believes that these factors will lead to sustained growth in the future.

The WEF attributes Israel’s improved ranking to the reforms prompted by the Bachar Committee which introduced a degree of competitiveness and professionalism to Israel’s economy, allowing for a revolution in asset management. According to the report’s author, Augusto Lopez-Claros, Israel is attracting a growing number of foreign investors and has exhibited impressive developments in its financial markets, to the extent that it has now developed along regional and international standards. Israel’s competitiveness is aided by its superior higher education and scientific research institutions, which have allowed the country to become a global technology powerhouse. 70% of Israel’s exports are high-tech products, the highest proportion in the world.

Israel is ranked 50th for macroeconomic policy, the lowest of all its rankings, and 29th in the institutions and basic requirements index. Despite its actual ranking in macroeconomic policy, the report favorably cites Israel’s fiscal policy and tax cuts, noting that while Israel’s public spending/GDP ratio was 47.3% is 2005, above the OECD average of 41.8%, the country plans to cut this ratio to 34.4% by 2010.

The US’ plunge in rank, behind Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, and Singapore, was attributed to growing imbalances in some macroeconomic indicators as well as the country’s huge fiscal deficit.

Rapidly growing emerging markets, which are changing the global balance of economic power, got mediocre rankings. India is ranked 43rd, China 54th, Russia 62nd, and Brazil 66th.

^^^

Fascinating find.

Although by the same token Israel is down to 27th on the 2009-2010 index, and the US is in second place to Switzerland:

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR09/GCR20092010fullreport.pdf (Warning: 3.85 MB file)

Well it can also be said that Germany and Japan owes much of thier largely sucessful economies due to the massive aid from America.

At the end of WW2, both economies were literly destroyed during the war, millions and millions were ethier displaced or homeless, not to mention busness and industries...and it took billions and billions (we're taking billions of dollars of american aid in 1945 here, not 2009) to get the economies of Germany,the rest of western Europe, as well as eastern Europe to a lesser extent and Japan running as well.

So bubbles would Germany be as advanced (standard of living,GNP, etc) as it is today, if America had not implemented the Marshall Plan in the aftermath of the war?

oh, man, cant WAIT for this answer

if I am not mistaken me old mate 1oldminer but there be a few differences between Germany and Japan of yesteryear and Israel of today.

one of the biggest differences Being the fact Israel did not exist until America's UN brought into being and would never have carried on existing if it was not for the Billions given to it each and every year for the last 60 years.

the question is how much has America given to the Palestinians who's lands where stolen to make Isreal ????????

So why hasn't the big oil arab nations like Saudi Arabia help thier downtrodden palastinian brothers with finiancial aid instead of getting aid from terrorist groups like Hamas?

Where were the arab nations at the time when the people living in the region were susposedly were being kicked out of thier homes? I don't recall the nieghbouring arab nation bothering to do anything at all to help them resettle, no they decided to attack the newly establish jewish state, simply because they could not tolerate having a jewish state in thier midst which by historical rights, had legitimate claim to the region.

Palastine never existed and there was no such thing as a palastinian homeland or an ethnic group called palastinians, so your accusation that Isreal stole it off the palastinians is pure revisionist BS.

No, it would not.

But has Germany received CONTINUOUS American aid like Israel is receiving?
No.
So can you really compare the 2?
No.

Nice try of trying to play the guilt card there, 1old, but I'm not sure it's gonna work this time.

Don't try to delude the subject now. Some of you claimed that Israel is where it is because of it's own doing, because it's a democracy, etc.
Now I've proven that's not true, and now you come with questions like this.
So do you admit that your previous position was wrong, or are you still saying that Israel is in its current shape because of it's own economy, democracy, etc.?



You're just mad you couldn't think of this question yourself, Grub.



Pretty sure those lunatics think that they are directly helping their Palestinian brothers by aiding Hamas....



They were wagin war, trying to win the war back from the country that allegedly kicked them out... What else were they gonna do?
Watch Israel send all these Arabs running and just help them relocate without addressing the source?



So by your reasoning you'd be more than happy to give Native American Indians their land back and relocate somewhere else?



Well the fact that the land was Arab land before the British came may have something to do with it. Or that all the Jews from that area left over time to start new lives in places like Europe, and then at the end of WWII they come back to something they had abandoned hundreds of year ago, claiming that it was rightfully theirs?

I'm sorry but I'd be pretty pissed off if Mongolia came back into Hungary and said "Ghangis Khan won this land in war, so we're claiming it now".

Something I've been saying for months now.

prob would have been noticed if everyone didnt ignore your crap most of the time.........

Actually, I was pretty low key until you showed up. Some other posters get under my skin once in a while, but generally they have good manners and are interesting conversationalists.

You have exhibited no detectable redeeming qualities to date.

considering the source......THANKS. As long as *AHEM* people like YOU dont like me, I know i am doing something right.

it's so sad that yet another thread Hijacked............ and turned into yet another battle over the bullying from our latest extreme right wing American raciest [ as Muslims can not be said to be a race you can't call me a raciest................ Jews in the 1930's could not be called a race, so you could not call anyone abusing them raciest ] waisted !

How about you just not start these stupid propaganda threads in the first place? All you ever do is hate on Israel or hate on America. And then you have the nerve to accuse others of being bigots.

Finally someone said the truth.

If you find the thread offensive, don't open it.

If you find posts within it offensive, don't read them.

Easy as that. Nobody is forcing you to read these posts.

I have no problem with people with different opinions on the matter, such as yourself bubbles. I do find cable's historical viewpoints out of touch with reality.

cable2's posts are clearly based on propoganda, historical revisionism and anti-american and isreali sentiments. Clearly he has issues with America and Isreal.

I simply concurred what Pieman stated was the truth.

If cable2 is allowed to post such inflammortory propoganda, then why should others like Pieman,Texasblue or Grubber not be allowed to post thier views to counter them?

I think it's sometimes difficult to distinguish propaganda from a persuasive piece of writing. Naturally, matters seriously critical of US are met with hostility and bring out the patriot in many.

Similarly, Israel is a sore point. As an American ally(perhaps biggest if based on American financial and military aid), as a homeland to Jews, source of much hostility in Middle East with Arab neighbors, inhumane treatment of Palestinians and illegal occupation of Palestine, Israel is bound to provoke strong feelings.

In some ways, Israel is a victim. We think about Jews fleeing the horrors in Germany and Europe looking for a place to call home. We want to help and protect Israel. Arab countries did not want Israel there and you feel for the Jews there who worry about being attacked (Iran's president's message regarding "wiping Israel off the map") and the fear of suicide bombers killing civilians at any time and any place.

But at the same time Israel treats Palestinians in a brutal and inhumane manner, killing civilians and destroying homes, breaking many laws and ignoring UN's rulings, has nuclear weapons, has a flourishing economy, receives aids in billions of dollar from US not to mention the military aid, and has a powerful military which has proved itself in the Six-Day War and is far stronger now.

Much of hostility of the people in Middle East comes from US's unconditional and strong support of Israel. The Palestinian situation is a sore point for them. Of course now there is also bitterness about Afghanistan and Iraq but Palestinian situation has a long history.

So part of "War on Terror" has to be more diplomatic, addressing Israel's conduct as well. Otherwise, US will continue to pay the price. This does not have to be a all-or-nothing situation. Holding Isreal responsible does not mean that US has to stop giving Israel aid or supporting it. But it means that Israel understands that this partnership goes both ways. We need their help as much as they need us. We can pay them and support them because we feel obligated for moral reasons to help victims of Holocaust and because of their strategic location, but they can't just go around destroying homes and killing people there and complain to us about suicide bombers, and at the same time asking us to support them, something that continues to tarnish America's image in Middle East.

We need them to act sensibly and responsibly. We got our hands full with the wars and economy. We can't handle anymore.

Well they are allowed to post their views on here so why wouldn't Cable be able to?

I admit that his posts are rather one sided, but I would not go as far as to call them Anti-American or Israeli.

He heavily criticises Bush for his war crimes and the same goes for Israel.
I have yet to hear 1 anti semitic remark or even anti Israeli remark on a personal level from Cable.
What he points out are violations against International law, something a lot of people on this board do not give a fart about unless it justifiies their views.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Your premises are poorly defined and your conclusion is logically unsound.

if your opinion carried any weight with me, I might, MIGHT take a second to think about that. As it is. I see who posted it and ignore it

Can't you just love the man

O' Golly Gosh.................. me thinks we has been here many times before, have we not me old mate

as far me knows Saudi Arabia has given help to the Palestinians people............. they keep building and Israel keeps knocking them down............. O' and by the way Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine............. no matter what Israel says



they where demanding to be heard............... but neither America or their UN took any notice of them ............... they had already made up their mind to imposed an Israel on Palestine.



"to help them resettle" resettle ???????????? why would they been any need to resettle from their homes on their land, if their homes and lands had not been given away ????????????

"by historical rights, had legitimate claim to the region" what historical rights???????????? the Jews where removed from Palestine by the Romans in 68 AD and have not been back as a entity until the American's gave them the land.......... it's like saying England should be given back to the Celts cos they lived there before the Angles and Saxons



"Palastine never existed" never existed???????????? me thinks you never opened a history or geography book.......... there was a Palatine long before the Jews as a group came into the land from Egypt.......... it could well be argued that there was a Palatine long before the Jews left Iraq

"an ethnic group called palastinians" I think you will find the "ethnic group" called Palestinians also has a long history.......... a longer history then say the English

"stupid propaganda threads" stupid???????????? O' I did not think bringing your attention the breaking of the rule of law was such a stupid.......... and the use of banned weapons in built up civilian areas as an act of war, we all should agree is wrong .......... NO????????????

and do's this mean you guys are no longer me buddies

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

wrong answer, thanks for playing, you can leave now

there are NO palitinains, they were and still are Jordanians. But Jordan wont take them back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

Are you saying there are no Kurds either? Are they just Turkish, Iraqi, etc.?

sticking feathers up your ass doesnt make you a chicken

they are jordanian, no matter what they call themselves.

your own link contained this little Gem:

Palestinians have never exercised full sovereignty over the land in which they have lived.

Palestine was administered by the Ottoman Empire until World War I, and then by the British Mandatory authorities. Israel was established in parts of Palestine in 1948, and in the wake of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied by Jordan, and the Gaza Strip by Egypt, with both countries continuing to administer these areas until Israel occupied them during the 1967 war.

Avi Shlaim explains that the argument that "you never had sovereignty over this land, and therefore you have no rights," has been used by Israelis to deny Palestinian rights and attachment to the land

Well Nationality does not always equal your ethnic background.

Native Amerian Navajos are American, but that doesn't mean they're not Navajo as well.

Kurds have Turkish or Iraqi passwords, but they'll make it clear to you that they're neither Turkish nor Iraqi.

And it's true, Palestinians never had their own country, but they were the main inhabitants of the territory that is now Israel even though it was owned by other countries.

It's also a fact that the Jews had left that part of the world to pursue better fortunes in Europe during the Renaissance and earlier than that even.
Yet then they came back and claimed the land that was originally theirs. That's like Native Americans coming back and saying "Okay, joke's over. Let's clear this area because this is Navajo land now!"

but here is the thing, the UNITED NATIONS that body that liberals, like yourself jsut LOVE to point to and say that they are in charge, MADE ISREAL the property of the Jews.

Not the jordanians

the JEWS

it's theirs, and the Jordanians and like it or suck it, but it wont change the status of it either way

That would be a first. Hope truly springs eternal.

So it's their right to take land from somebody and give it to somebody else?

If the UN gave your State back to the Native Americans would you have the same attitude towards that?

Div

open a book or so and you will find the ethnic group classed as Palestinians where made up of the original peoples and the "peoples of the sea" in the same way as the ethnic Britons where made up of the original peoples and the Celts............ with the English only coming into being some time after the Romans left Britain

as large parts of Europe where administered by the Ottoman Empire......... you would say the Greek people did not exist ??????????????????????????????




Israel has used all kinds of excuses over the last 60 years to denied the Palestinians their rights........... none of them add up to the rule of international law


and as David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

me thinks Grubber is talking about the American owned UN which made Israel with out the consent of the Palestinian people............. in fact with out the consent of any of the nations of the middle east.

me also thinks Grubber is talking about the American owned UN which demanded it's Israel return all lands taken out side of the boarders drawn up for it by the UN............. resolution 242 was passed with the consent of America............. it was only when the whole of the UN called for legal action to be taken against Israel did America use it's veto.

as me old mate Grubber will tell you a lot has happened with in the UN after America first ruled over it.

listen up Chicken Boy

I dont kiss the pecker of the UN like some people around here do, so if they tried that, i would be busy laughing till i got my rifle loaded.

but i was just pointing out to the usual idiots around here that IF they worship the UN, and cite the UN backstepping on US action into Iraq, then they should respect the fact that the UN CREATED and GAVE israel to the Jews, and gave the local jordanians the finger.

but of course, the usual idiots will [censored] and cry and moan no matter what.

US? always bad
Israel? always bad

they could announce tomorrow that a joint team of American and Israeli doctors had cured cancer, and about 4 people here would pipe up and claim that that proved the US and Israel are homophobes because they didnt cure aids.....

Only if it fits your agenda like it does with the Cuban Trade Embargo, right?



Meaning yourself?
I don't support that UN move either. After all, it was largely sponsored and pushed by Britain and the US, not the UN as a whole.



Why do you keep referring to yourself as that?



Show me one example where anybody has said that both of those countries are always bad.
Sure, they've both broken laws that they've sworn to uphold and protect, but that doesn't make them always bad.



Israeli and American doctors? That would be a first!
I don't think anybody would pipe that up in here because it would be, after all, beneficial to mankind unlike some of the US' and Israel's actions.


Still evading the question of whether you would give your state back to Native Americans if somebody came and told you to do so!

You know what? I'm really sick and tired of all this anti-Israeli and anti-American bullshit. Can't you people talk politics without being bigots?

You might want to check some of the back posts in here before you come down hard on anyone in particular, or pick your allies.

see, this is why i would love to slap the ever loving piss out of you.

i ANSWERED YOU, and you either are too stupid to realize it, or you are ignoring it.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that it was an everyday affair that American and Israeli doctors were working TOGETHER on the cure for cancer!

So should I say that I'm tired of all this anti-Muslim and anti-socialist bullshit that's going on here?

Are we not allowed to call out on people who are breaking the law because if that's true, then I don't want to hear another thing about the Health Reform and the Constution, the Fort Hood shootings, or any criminal acts for that matter.

Maybe you should read the posts before getting your blood all boiling, it's not good for you, you know?



I very much doubt you'd be successful at that but hey, as long as we're online, give it a shot!



I apologize, I missed it.

So you're saying you'd reply with your rifle blasting??

Hmm... seems familiar. I wonder what Hammas is doing to the Israelis then...

But Grubber is the good guy and Hammas are the bad guys, you know?

hammas blows up kids, so YES they are in fact the bad guys

WHF happened to the world where people are too goddamned stupid to look, see people blowing up KIDS and figure out that THOSE are the BAD GUYS???

How the [censored] did liberals get so goddamned stupid?

"hammas blows up kids"........... they are also the democratically elected government of Palestine.

freedom fighters or terrorists.......... is a hard question to answer in any conflict for it's not just a question of which side you support.......... if that was the case then one would close one's eyes and say our murders are the good murders and their murders are the bad murders.

60 years of the unlawful killing of Philistine children

1. I'm not a liberal, not an american liberal and not a german one!

2. I already wrote this in another thread in german:
There is not only black and white, there is a wide range of grey between the two extremes. But many people here see only black and white. For you, Grubber, Israel is white and the Palestinians are black. For me both of them are grey, only the tinge may be different.

So you justify decades of Hamas and Hezbollah killing isreali children cable? Sure seems like you're justifying terrorist acts to me.Because that is exactly what Hamas has been doing to isreali citizens and the palastinian people they are sussposedly trying to help.

You keep obsessing over what Isreal does wrong and what America does wrong. You continue to accuse both nations of genocide and war crimes of which there is no proof of such.

Well??What about Hamas, Al Qada, Hezbollah and all the other islamic terrist organizations dedacated soley for one purpose the total destruction of Isreal and creating an islamic theocratic world government.

That is why some like myself to tend view you posting nothing but propogandist garbage.

figure it out

What's the deal with all these baby carriages around? Are they fighting in a daycare?

Interesting drawings. I get what you're saying.

"So you justify decades of Hamas and Hezbollah killing isreali children cable?"............. O' Golly Gosh, that what one gets when one is trying to be too clever by half.

if you had read my post carefully you would have seen I said "60 years of the unlawful killing of Philistine children" meaning that all children where innocent or ignorant of the crimes taken place in the last 60 years............ I could no more blame Israeli children any more then you should blame Palestinian children.

but it teachers me not be too clever.............. it don't work

Nice try on trying to pedal back on your words cable but no cigar.Did you not posted one time that philistine to be the ancestral term for palastine? So WTH are you trying to say in reference to 60 years of killing philistinian children?

Are you refering to the period from the "unlawful" establishment of Isreal up to the present time?

The isrealis jews descended from the hebrew tribes that would eventually made up the traditional ancestral kingdom of Judea.

The philistines were one of the tribes that inhabited the area, bordering on the Mediterrianian which is described in the bible. Palastine got its name from the area that was inhabited by one of the tribes, the philistines... But there is no evidence of the philistines being the ancestors of the palastinian people which are likely a combination of mixed nomadic tribes, from modern day Jordan to Egypt, which simply happened to be living in the area at the time.

Ah, there it is, exactly as I predicted several days ago.

About the only thing he's left out is to challenge BB to a fistfight, and I'm sure he wants to very badly, because the "kiddo" is kicking his butt rhetorically. Bullies always turn to their fists when they can't measure up intellectually.

http://forums.superiorpics.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2297282/4

i know you are not that smart, you prove it every day, but do you really not see the difference between "i would like to" and "i am going to"

seriously? are you THAT stupid?

or just THAT much of a d-bag?

and BTW d-bag, aint no one above an ass kicking. We ALL talk a bunch of noise behind the safety of the keyboard, but lets tell the truth for a minute.

in front of someone, you have to be a little more respectful, because there just might be an ass kicking at the end of that exchange.

oh i know, you will, like all new age psuedo intellectuals do, pooh pooh it and say something about how "if you have to resort to violence, you dont have anything to add"

except a fist through your face

facts are facts, some times, you say the wrong thing to the wrong guy, he just might go upside your head.

I am not endorsing that, I am just recognizing it as reality

They blow up children because that's the only way they can fight Israel.
If you gave "Palestine" the weapons the US gives Israel, I'm sure they wouldn't blow up children anymore!

However, I don't think there are "Good" and "Bad" guys in this situation, they're both breaking the law.
This isn't a superhero movie after all!



That sums up what I was saying about the "good" and "bad" guys!







MIA. I'm really wondering what happened to Dbl...



If you said "going to" it would make you sound like even more of an idiot because this is the internet. You don't know where I live, what I look like, or anything else about me, so how are you going to threaten me with something like that.




You're saying you'd actually hit somebody for expressing his Political views?
That's mature.

Nobody else on this board makes any offensive remarks like you, Grub, and that's the only reason I could think of why you would hit somebody in a Political debate.

I sent General RAAM a PM about the lack of moderation here last night (German time). I saw he was online then. But I have still no answer and it seems like nothing has changed here.

"Nice try on trying to pedal back on your words cable" back pedal ? not I............... as I said I was trying to be clever but only found I had embarrassed myself by being so clumsy............... it's like the time when I called Grubber a jack-booted goose-steeping bully............... only to find myself caught up in the claim that I am called him a Nazi................ which I had not, nor did ever see him as a Nazi and said so............... but my cleverness and tripped me up............... I saw Grubber more like one of those South American Fascist military dictators who would scream and shout and use violence to get their own way.

"the 60 years of unlawful killing of children"............... starts from the time the America's UN imposed Israel on Palestine with out the consent of the Palestinian people............... when the Israel drove out millions of Palestinians out of their homes and into exile............... when Palestinians started their fight back............... innocent and ignorant children on both sides where unlawfully killed.

"which is described in the bible" you should use the bible as a history book............... nor should use the bible as geographic book................ in fact you should not use the bible as any thing other then a religious book.

"there is no evidence of the philistines being the ancestors of the palastinian people" No evidence................ I'll give that................ manly cos it's hard to get DNA from the remains that old................ what one can say is that Palestinians carry DNA from the "sea peoples"................ and the "sea peoples" predate the first Jewish invasion by a few thousand years................ in the same way the Welsh carry the DNA of the Britons before the Roman's invade and the English where invented.

I am happy to say I have always stood up against bullies....... sadly not always successfully....... but hey you can't let the buggers win all the time

you dont HAVE to win, the fact that you stand up means you win.


and again for the slow, ia m not endorsing the "upside their head" brand of debate, just admitting that it exists.

Aw, man, just post a picture of your genitals next to a ruler and get it over with.

again for the terminally stupid, not endorsing it, just admitt ing that it exists.

They don't make rules small enough to measure his.

Ladies, Ladies please...... it's time for you to close your powder puffs...... and let's go back to fighting over the politicks of the world

you guys seem to be obsessing over my junk