Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 9662
Loc: In a country with no army =)
Quote:
the misconception that deeply researching these and other fields of science would annihilate the spirituality of any sound thinking person.
There is nothing backhanded about pointing out that someone with a high level of education has not been brainwashed into believing in God, but actually finds good reason in his field of expertise to keep having faith in His existence.
Which was my point.
And secondly, the subject of this thread is "Hell, Heaven and Kingdom Of Lord" (maybe your formal training allows you to read), which you unbelievers insist on flooding with "scientific" arguments and insults to those who disagree.
Maybe EE_EE has succumbed to the same "abrasive" treatment, but I haven't. As a matter of fact I've asked him to be nicer and not be unnecessarily preachy.
One way or another, my posts have always been aimed at those whose heart allows to listen to the Word of God, and to let them know that they are not defenseless against those who mock them for believing.
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Why, because I asked you to provide academic papers that prove a designer?
Originally Posted By: WesMordine
I don't believe I ever called any of your sources "rags", matt75.
WHat is wrong with that? They are more like newspapers or magazines than journals aren't they? "Rag" is simply a slang word for newspaper or magazine. Just determined to take offence at everything I say in order to avoid answering the question?
He seeks for signs and proof, even to tempt god to prove his power, while ingnoring the clear evidence of god's existence around him if he but opens his mind and heart.... while he accuses others like EE_EE as being a sign-seeker.
Get yourself a dictionary.
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Your hateful attitude in ever present. My "undoing" would be to waste more time paying any attention to your derogatory remarks, not to allegedly fail to understand the scientific method.
I don't believe I ever called any of your sources "rags", matt75.
No, but to be honest, your mistreatment of quotes is INCREDIBLY insulting to any respectable scientist. You need to research your evidence before you throw it at us. You need to not attempt to pass off those without proper qualifications (i.e. the physicist) as experts on a subject about which they have no formal training. Matt75's style may be unnecessarily abrasive, but yours is frankly backhanded and equally inappropriate.
He fails to see that he is doing anything wrong in copying and pasting articles from WatchTower without checking the credibility of the sources. He is using piety to excuse blind acceptance.
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And these Design Theorists must prove it, especially when they claim to be engaging in science. By Behe's own admission, the DI has never conducted a single experiment or research project and consequently never published a single paper.
Yet they have no problem spending $27 million on this.
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#2002984 - 06/17/0902:01 PMRe: Hell, Heaven and Kingdom Of Lord
[Re: The_Amber_Spyglass]
EE_EE
Hardcore
Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3477
Loc: On the way to heaven
I'm not even talking about that. Francis Collins believes that God used evolution to create life on earth - whether you use the word "create" or "design" doesn't matter to me - it is by the hand of God that life exists.
Quote:
Collins: Why this scientist believes in God By Dr. Francis Collins Special to CNN
Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief."
ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.
As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.
I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.
I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in GodVideo)
I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."
But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.
For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.
So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection?
Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.
But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.
I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God's majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.
And these Design Theorists must prove it, especially when they claim to be engaging in science. By Behe's own admission, the DI has never conducted a single experiment or research project and consequently never published a single paper.
Yet they have no problem spending $27 million on this.
But can you really prove that evoulutionary theory has been proven...beyond a shadow of doubt? Even carbon dating is not entirely accurate.
Even with all archealogical "evidence" scientists continue to modify and challenge past evoulutionary theories such how the dinosaurs lived and reared thier young and I am betting that will continue to do so.
The burden of proof matt...is still on you.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas
And these Design Theorists must prove it, especially when they claim to be engaging in science. By Behe's own admission, the DI has never conducted a single experiment or research project and consequently never published a single paper.
Yet they have no problem spending $27 million on this.
But can you really prove that evoulutionary theory has been proven...beyond a shadow of doubt? Even carbon dating is not entirely accurate.
Even with all archealogical "evidence" scientists continue to modify and challenge past evoulutionary theories such how the dinosaurs lived and reared thier young and I am betting that will continue to do so.
The burden of proof matt...is still on you.
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And these Design Theorists must prove it, especially when they claim to be engaging in science. By Behe's own admission, the DI has never conducted a single experiment or research project and consequently never published a single paper.
Yet they have no problem spending $27 million on this.
But can you really prove that evoulutionary theory has been proven...beyond a shadow of doubt? Even carbon dating is not entirely accurate.
Even with all archealogical "evidence" scientists continue to modify and challenge past evoulutionary theories such how the dinosaurs lived and reared thier young and I am betting that will continue to do so.
The burden of proof matt...is still on you.
Well matt...
I think I can say that I await with anticipation for that 1000 page epic blockbuster novel detailing uncontested proof that God simply does not exist and Darwin was right all along.
Please matt, you need to devote more time and research...if you ever going to finish that book that is going to blow the lid of the entire christian/Judeo/muslim/buddhist etc world.
Think about matt it could make you rich and famous beyond your wildest dreams. And you can say I told you so.
_________________________
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible". ~Thomas Aquinas