Quote: Science is not at home in the land of moral values and love. It cannot explain it, and much less can it write a moral code worth living by. Science's "moral code" is "survival of the fittest".
Right. Science is not morality. That's why I took issue with you applying morality to a scientific study.
Quote: Also, one thing is science, and another is the interpretation each "expert" gives the evidence. If science was as black and white as you propose here, there wouldn't be so many diverse and often contradicting opinions coming from the scientific community. They would all speak in accord. That is NOT the case.
I mean yeah that's true, but you didn't take issue with their research methods or something (to claim their results should be disputed), you applied morality to science which you yourself said doesn't work.
Quote:
Interesting how always, people advocating lax morality like to lean on quoting the Bible only when it says something that they think speaks to their advantage. But they haven't read the whole book, as to grasp with any serious intent what Jesus meant.
You're only misusing Jesus's words as an excuse for indecent living, so I won't even debate that derailed point of view.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Old Testament more the fire-and-brimstone, "do this or God will fuck you up", book? Didn't Christ preach acceptance, tolerance, love, and didn't even the Old Testament tell man that judgement fell to God and God alone?
Quote: Paul speaks of those who have abandoned the natural ways of things to practice crass inmorality.
In regards my personal point of view about them, do you want the short or the long answer? In any case, you just read it from Apostle Paul's words, so there you have it.
However it is not my place to take any action against other people for their behavior, other than to show them what God's guidelines for living are.
It is God who will do the judging and will pay each one in accordance with what they choose to practice.
Given the bolded section I will assume you are saying yes that passage represents your beliefs. In which case I'd love to know how you reconcile "Judge not lest ye be judged" with deciding that anyone who violates your interpretation of Judeo-Christian sexual morality deserve to burn forever.
Quote: Who said anything about forcing anyone? God doesn't force anyone to do things His way. He asks politely, like the gentleman He is. And then, after enough time of asking nicely, He destroys those who didn't listen.
To those who CHOOSE not to live according to His commands, he actually tells them the following:
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still.
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." --Revelation 22:11, 12
So your belief is that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being who created time and the universe as we know it cares where I put my genetalia, and would forever damn my consciousness/soul based on that fact alone.
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Cherry picking (perhaps a poor phrase in view of the general content of this thread) a point mentioned earlier, I think the ancient Greeks you refer to were particularly the Spartans, who lived in an intensely regimented, militaristic culture.
Love, both emotional and physical, was condoned and even encouraged in the ranks, since it was expected (quite reasonably) that soldiers would fight much harder to protect loved ones, making the entire army more powerful in battle.
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The HB
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I'll take the middle ground on this one. Wes is entitled to his opinion even if it's from the Bible. Whilst the Bible does teach good virtues, not everyone can agree on it.
Many things in this world are immoral (if you define morality as rules set by a religion), in fact, if you try to follow all the rules from just 2 different religions, it is impossible to stick to the rules. You can't be both a Christian and a Muslim without insulting both religions.
My definition of morality is that - if there's no victim, there's not crime. If a man has a BDSM fetish involving being tied up, wax burnt and whipped, and there's a dominatrix willing to do it. No one has been violated against their own will.
I'm not big on bondage myself, the furthest I'd go is wrap a loose ribbon around a naked girl because it presses on her bare skin and provides a nice texture contrast. I wouldn't say someone who enjoys spanking and hand tying rags is abnormal, but if you go too far down the road then it would be.
Now as for the argument about science, I see science as the art of logic - but psychology is not as solid in its concepts as physics is - I see it as a half-science. Psychology has a lot of theories on how the mind 'might work' but those have yet to be confirmed (for an utterly theory, see 'Penis Envy' by Sigmund Freud).
Normality is also hard to define, it's a arbitrary thing. Right now, we see casual sex as normal but some fetishes as abnormal. But what if some dictator in the future declares sex and masturbation as illegal because it's seems 'animal', 'primitive', and 'savage'. People of today would see that as abso-fucking-lutly nuts.
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My definition of morality is that - if there's no victim, there's not crime. If a man has a BDSM fetish involving being tied up, wax burnt and whipped, and there's a dominatrix willing to do it. No one has been violated against their own will.
Even if it is a case of two consenting adults there's always a victim, themselves for one, sexual intercourse was always/is/ and forever meant to be a an expression of love (not lust) between a husband and wife within the confines of marraige, they that engage in any sexual (even if it is between two consenting people) acts outside the bounds of marriage, they violate the very sacred godly powers given them to bring forth God's children into the world.
So yeah I'd say there's still victims...victims of thier shortsightness of the ramifications of thier choices.
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limey
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Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 707
Loc: EmmaLand, near Haydenville
its good to know that fluffy pink handcuffs are still good
as for certain posters in here yet another example the bible pulled out as a "moral" example *sigh* its not, all the killing , genocides, and the bit where Lot let his daughter be raped. yeah right moral....
what gives you the right to insert you personal dogma into what people do in the bedroom/couch/kitchen table in their own homes??
sex is natural, for instance studys have found that masturbation can reduce prostate cancer ( i think there was a thread about it somewhere here) not bad for a sin eh?!
Quote: they violate the very sacred godly powers given them to bring forth God's children into the world.
that conveniently forgets about people that are infertile....
Quote:
Even if it is a case of two consenting adults there's always a victim, themselves for one, sexual intercourse was always/is/ and forever meant to be a an expression of love (not lust) between a husband and wife within the confines of marraige, they that engage in any sexual (even if it is between two consenting people) acts outside the bounds of marriage, they violate the very sacred godly powers given them to bring forth God's children into the world
So yeah I'd say there's still victims...victims of thier shortsightness of the ramifications of thier choices"
im gonna guess that you are refering to hellfire??
bad christian. thats not your god condemming people. thats you wanting to condemn people just because it doesn't fit in with your personal ideology.
if you want to limit your experiences based on a book of tall tales, thats your free choice, and good luck with it. but you really should not try to spoil it for others. besides if your right your god will teach us a lesson wont he!
Edited by limey (08/31/0807:23 PM)
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Kane
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Registered: 04/18/06
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Loc: Ghost Hall Bldg. 10F
Quote:
if you want to limit your experiences based on a book of tall tales, thats your free choice, and good luck with it. but you really should not try to spoil it for others. besides if your right your god will teach us a lesson wont he!
Personally, I think that's quite nicely put. Salutations, limey.
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My definition of morality is that - if there's no victim, there's not crime. If a man has a BDSM fetish involving being tied up, wax burnt and whipped, and there's a dominatrix willing to do it. No one has been violated against their own will.
Even if it is a case of two consenting adults there's always a victim, themselves for one, sexual intercourse was always/is/ and forever meant to be a an expression of love (not lust) between a husband and wife within the confines of marraige, they that engage in any sexual (even if it is between two consenting people) acts outside the bounds of marriage, they violate the very sacred godly powers given them to bring forth God's children into the world.
So yeah I'd say there's still victims...victims of thier shortsightness of the ramifications of thier choices.
You have all the freedom to say or do all you want, in fact agency is one of the great if not the greatest gifts God gave us....
However, any choice we make, whether it's good or bad has consequences and that limey that none of us as humans can shirk from. Why do you think your parents taught you right from wrong in the first place?
Why do you think we have governments in the first place? To maintain law and order, without laws society will fall into anarchy,and with it civilization so goes with maintaining our standards of morality/ethics, without them so goes society/civilization.
That is what you are beginning to see society falling apart all around you,even on a global scale, regardless of religion/political stripe.
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Kane
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That is so histrionic I couldn't help myself but to laugh out loud.
Such sentiments have spanned millennia, soooo at what date is society set to completely capitulate, exactly? To me, your argument is not one of ethics - it's a stance on one side of a generational conflict, which is just that - generational (and meaningless).
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limey
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Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 707
Loc: EmmaLand, near Haydenville
Quote:
Why do you think we have governments in the first place? To maintain law and order, without laws society will fall into anarchy,and with it civilization so goes with maintaining our standards of morality/ethics, without them so goes society/civilization.
That is what you are beginning to see society falling apart all around you,even on a global scale, regardless of religion/political stripe.
lol you do realise that most likely standards of morality haven't changed that much, just people are more open about it now
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Kane
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Registered: 04/18/06
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Loc: Ghost Hall Bldg. 10F
Quote:
lol you do realise that most likely standards of morality haven't changed that much, just people are more open about it now
hehe. I pipped you to the post
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theory, see 'Penis Envy' by Sigmund Freud).
bad christian. thats not your god condemming people. thats you wanting to condemn people just because it doesn't fit in with your personal ideology.
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