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stax
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It's 4 years from now, 5 years from Barry's last season. His name comes up on the Hall of Fame ballot and you just got this totally sweet job as a sportswriter and somehow got a BBWAA ballot. Which box do you check?
Now as far as I'm concerned, I say yes. He was a Hall of Famer before the first time anyone said he stuck a needle in his arm just like Pete Rose was a Hall of Famer before the first time he laid down a bet on baseball. Barring being banned from baseball in similar fashion I'd have him enshrined for what he did with potential notice of what he may have *cough* done.
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XenaGuy
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You and I have been over this subject already, in a different thread. I voted "No", because I believe Bonds' numbers would have been substantially lower over the last half of his career with him off the juice. Looking at his slugging numbers (and, after all, isn't that why he's considered a future HOF'er?) over the last half of his career, he might have been on the ballot anyway, but not a sure pick. Throw in the juice, and I say "No way!"
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stax
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Quote:
You and I have been over this subject already, in a different thread. I voted "No", because I believe Bonds' numbers would have been substantially lower over the last half of his career with him off the juice. Looking at his slugging numbers (and, after all, isn't that why he's considered a future HOF'er?) over the last half of his career, he might have been on the ballot anyway, but not a sure pick. Throw in the juice, and I say "No way!"
Unless you're going back to your Bonds took roids in 95 scenario, which makes no sense because there's no evidence (either steroid related or even stat related) that he did, he's absolutely on the ballot and a serious candidate.
Barry Bonds career statistics through 1999:
2010 H, 1430 BB, 445 HR, 6976 ABs. .288/.409/.558 for an OPS of .967. Now this is imperfect as it includes the league average of his years on roids (I'm not going to bother digging up league averages for all those years just to make a slight adjust), but his actual career OPS on roids was 1.051 for an OPS+ of 182, so league avg was about .577. Compare his new OPS to that and you get an OPS+ of 167 (would be tied for 10th with Ty Cobb). Bill James already had him rated as one of the top 25 greatest players of all time before he touched a needle. He was likely the greatest defensive left fielder of all time at that point (without those old slowpoke years to balance it out). And this is assuming he broke both legs and arms the day he started taking steroids and didn't play another game of baseball, which is silly. At least some of those roided numbers (assuming he took them, which hasn't been proven) would've happened anyways.
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Edited by stax (Thu Sep 04 2008 09:07 AM)
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dan5card
C.E.O. = Chief Emmanuelle Observer
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The man won 3 MVP's before the alleged steroid use came into play. I am not going to go back and forth arguing this but unless you have played baseball (which I have all my life) you can't say steroids did all the work. The talent has to be there otherwise there would have been 100's of Barry Bonds playing during the "juice era".
Faster recovery, increased bat speed doesn't mean squat unless you can put the bat to the ball solidly and no steroid can make you do that. That is sheer talent alone. He belongs in the Hall of Fame
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H_Scudder
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I believe Bonds' pre-juice numbers would probably have warranted his election to the Hall regardless of later indiscretions. However, I'd definitely be voting "No", at least for the next couple of decades or so. Seems to me Bonds -- at the very least -- deserves the Pete Rose treatment, which will (apparently) be "Wait 'til he's dead, then put him in the HoF and acknowledge the controversial aspects of his career on the plaque".
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Mauser98k
Hemme Powered
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nope.
so he tooks steroids. fine. if he admitted it like Andy Pettitte did, the whole thng may have blown over and he may have been a bit more likeable. as it stands now, he's a lying, cheating douche who should be treated like one.
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DD
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Major Payne
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not until Maris is in.
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stax
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Quote:
I believe Bonds' pre-juice numbers would probably have warranted his election to the Hall regardless of later indiscretions. However, I'd definitely be voting "No", at least for the next couple of decades or so. Seems to me Bonds -- at the very least -- deserves the Pete Rose treatment, which will (apparently) be "Wait 'til he's dead, then put him in the HoF and acknowledge the controversial aspects of his career on the plaque".
If Barry Bonds is banned from baseball for his actions, a la Rose, that makes sense. And if you argue that, somehow, you don't see his pre-Roids numbers as HoF worthy AND somehow you give him zero credit for anything done after that, I guess you could say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. What I don't get is why do the BBWAA get to make a judgement that MLB or even the American court system hasn't made yet?
Quote:
nope.
so he tooks steroids. fine. if he admitted it like Andy Pettitte did, the whole thng may have blown over and he may have been a bit more likeable. as it stands now, he's a lying, cheating douche who should be treated like one.
Ty Cobb stabbed a black bellhop and once jumped into the stands to beat up a guy essentially because the guy accused him of not being racist enough. Babe Ruth was an alcoholic and a womanizer, in fact a huge number of players before the 50s or so were massive alcoholics. I'd be willing to bet multiple HoFers/HoF candidates from the 70s and 80s took cocaine. The Hall of Fame is not a measurement of a persons quality as a person it is a measure of their quality as a baseball player. Again, if you argue that his performance does not warrant a spot in the Hall that is a position you can take, but a rather difficult one to defend (since 10th greatest OPS+ of all time, greatest defensive left fielder ever, nearly 500 HR, basically a .300/.400/.500 hitter assuming he doesn't play a game past age 34 is pretty clearly a HoFer).
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stax
Liuser
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Quote:
not until Maris is in.
Huh? Where is the connection? Maris was a pretty good player with a very traditional age 24-30 peak including one very good 1961 (when, as is often forgotten, teammate Mickey Mantle was way way way better). Outside of 2 MVPs (one just barely barely beating Mantle in 60, and then in 61 again barely beating Mantle when he won thanks to the record but Mantle had a way better year) what about him is HoF worthy?
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Edited by stax (Thu Sep 04 2008 01:15 PM)
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taurus5382
When life gives you lemons, just say 'Fuck the lemons,' and bail.
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Quote:
The man won 3 MVP's before the alleged steroid use came into play. I am not going to go back and forth arguing this but unless you have played baseball (which I have all my life) you can't say steroids did all the work. The talent has to be there otherwise there would have been 100's of Barry Bonds playing during the "juice era".
Faster recovery, increased bat speed doesn't mean squat unless you can put the bat to the ball solidly and no steroid can make you do that. That is sheer talent alone. He belongs in the Hall of Fame
Agreed. 
As for my vote, it's...
YES!!!
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i_luv_holly
Veteran
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Yes. And Pete Rose too. The HOF is supposed to be about the numbers. Not about the character. 
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Mauser98k
Hemme Powered
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Quote:
Quote:
I believe Bonds' pre-juice numbers would probably have warranted his election to the Hall regardless of later indiscretions. However, I'd definitely be voting "No", at least for the next couple of decades or so. Seems to me Bonds -- at the very least -- deserves the Pete Rose treatment, which will (apparently) be "Wait 'til he's dead, then put him in the HoF and acknowledge the controversial aspects of his career on the plaque".
If Barry Bonds is banned from baseball for his actions, a la Rose, that makes sense. And if you argue that, somehow, you don't see his pre-Roids numbers as HoF worthy AND somehow you give him zero credit for anything done after that, I guess you could say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. What I don't get is why do the BBWAA get to make a judgement that MLB or even the American court system hasn't made yet?
Quote:
nope.
so he tooks steroids. fine. if he admitted it like Andy Pettitte did, the whole thng may have blown over and he may have been a bit more likeable. as it stands now, he's a lying, cheating douche who should be treated like one.
Ty Cobb stabbed a black bellhop and once jumped into the stands to beat up a guy essentially because the guy accused him of not being racist enough. Babe Ruth was an alcoholic and a womanizer, in fact a huge number of players before the 50s or so were massive alcoholics. I'd be willing to bet multiple HoFers/HoF candidates from the 70s and 80s took cocaine. The Hall of Fame is not a measurement of a persons quality as a person it is a measure of their quality as a baseball player. Again, if you argue that his performance does not warrant a spot in the Hall that is a position you can take, but a rather difficult one to defend (since 10th greatest OPS+ of all time, greatest defensive left fielder ever, nearly 500 HR, basically a .300/.400/.500 hitter assuming he doesn't play a game past age 34 is pretty clearly a HoFer).
Ty Cobb may have been a bigot and Babe Ruth may have been a drunken womanizer, but they never took performance enhancing drugs (AKA they never cheated). Bonds did, and worse, he lied about it. he should NOT be in the HoF; if not for the 'roids, then for the lying about the 'roids.
anyone who uses a substance to increase their playing ability should automatically be barred from the Hall for life. it's cheating and it doesn't give an accurate representation of your playing abilities.
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stax
Liuser
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Quote:
Ty Cobb may have been a bigot and Babe Ruth may have been a drunken womanizer, but they never took performance enhancing drugs (AKA they never cheated). Bonds did, and worse, he lied about it. he should NOT be in the HoF; if not for the 'roids, then for the lying about the 'roids.
anyone who uses a substance to increase their playing ability should automatically be barred from the Hall for life. it's cheating and it doesn't give an accurate representation of your playing abilities.
But that's a different statement. I have no issue with the idea that proven steroids users (assuming he's proven to have used) deserve a more serious, Rose-like, banning from baseball (though you'll run into issues since some people have already been more loosely punished for their use). But if he ISN'T banned from baseball, why does the BBWAA get to invent new qualifications for the Hall? Plenty of low character guys are in the Hall, plenty of cheaters (using outside substances as a pitcher like pine tar, stealing signs, etc, etc, is all cheating) are in the Hall. I understand steroids are obviously far more egregious but why do sportswriters get to make a call that baseball hasn't?
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JT
Philogynist
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Yes. The only way no is if he is banned from baseball, which may only happen if he is officially guilty of illegal substances. Other suspect players like McGwire and Palmeiro might no make it due to their allegations, but Barry is just too good, before and after the Balco.
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