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stax
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Wins are meaningless and a terrible measure of skill. Yeah Ryan has the career K record, but only because he kept playing far past when he had any real business pitching anymore. Same comment applies to 'dominating' for so long, when that career leaves him with a barely above league average and.. BTW? Nobody ever mentions that Ryan is also the all-time leader in walks. Does a lot to kill the advantage gained from those Ks.
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I voted for Sandy Koufax, because he's the one pitcher I've seen play that I felt could most walk onto the mound and take control of a game.
It's tough to compare players from different eras, not because the quality of the competition is different, but because the rules are different.
Really hard to compare K/BB from pitchers throwing off a 10" mound with a pitcher throwing from a 15" (or even 20"" mound. Also tough to compare stats of pre-slider era pitchers with those of today, especially since most of today's pitchers use the slider as their 'out' pitch.
Rules changes alter things, certainly, but so long as you compare to your competition who cares (which is how every cross-era comparison works). It's true rules changes might throw a wrench into things, as maybe someone able to get above-average performance under one set of rules wouldn't under another, but there's no real reason to believe that. A higher/lower mound, distance to the plate, type of ball, any environmental factor will alter #s a certain amount, but if you're comparing to numbers of the same era it doesn't matter (and then compare the over/under to league average you just got across eras).
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
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XenaGuy
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if you're comparing to numbers of the same era it doesn't matter ...
Which we are NOT doing. We're comparing stats, looking for the GOAT pitcher (specifically crossing eras). I'm saying stats can't tell that due to different rules for different eras ... as well as the difference in strike zones in the two leagues (due greatly to the different stance the home-plate umpire takes). Also take into account the difference in (as previously mentioned) # of pitches thrown per start. Lots easier to get more K's (for instance) if you're left in the game for 125 pitches instead of automatically being pulled after 95 no matter how well you are pitching.
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(and then compare the over/under to league average you just got across eras).
Probably the only way to compare eras, but does not account for the cyclic nature of pitching vs batting. If you were the greatest pitcher during a time when pitching in general sucked, does that put you in the running for GOAT? ... etc, etc, etc.
In other words, this is tough! 
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#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
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XenaGuy
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stax
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Which we are NOT doing. We're comparing stats, looking for the GOAT pitcher (specifically crossing eras). I'm saying stats can't tell that due to different rules for different eras ... as well as the difference in strike zones in the two leagues (due greatly to the different stance the home-plate umpire takes). Also take into account the difference in (as previously mentioned) # of pitches thrown per start. Lots easier to get more K's (for instance) if you're left in the game for 125 pitches instead of automatically being pulled after 95 no matter how well you are pitching.
Your misunderstanding me. We ARE comparing to the same era. That's how you get ERA+ and other era-adjusted stats like WARP and such. You compare to the same era to get era-independent numbers, then compare those numbers to get GOAT.
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Probably the only way to compare eras, but does not account for the cyclic nature of pitching vs batting.
Yes, it does absolutely. Pedro's peak was better than Koufax's peak (unless you put extreme value on pitching more innings) because he put up virtually identical numbers in an era of vastly better hitting. The league had cycled towards hitting, but Pedro was dominant.
Think of comparing across eras like comparing weight lifting under different gravities. Sandy Koufax was doing his lifting on the Moon, where everything is a bit lighter (the league favored pitching more) so his numbers, while impressive, are not as impressive as Pedro putting up those #s under heavier gravity (a hitters league).
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If you were the greatest pitcher during a time when pitching in general sucked, does that put you in the running for GOAT? ... etc, etc, etc.
Yes. Putting up a 3 ERA in 1998 is more impressive than putting up a 3 ERA in 1968.
Really, cross-era comparison isn't that bad. How well the league did is very very measurable, so you can pretty easily figure out an era-independent # for measuring someone. The only real bump in this road would be the EARLIEST period for baseball because you face a multitude of issues:
-Different fundamental practices for pitchers, more tired innings at the back end hurting pitchers and less stud relievers (though some of those starters coming in relief were great) which helps hitters
-Lack of integration, which creates potential problems throughout. I will continue to hold that Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all time, and no white pitcher had to face him in a real game. No one faced Satchel Paige in his prime, etc.
-During the deadball era fundamental differences in equipment that led to lowered power (the dead ball), high error rates (shitty gloves), and absurdly high batting averages (monstrous OFs with stuff falling in everywhere)
And even that last one can be mostly accounted for through the same method I've been talking about, it's just an EXTREME case of a different era.
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
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XenaGuy
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Which we are NOT doing. We're comparing stats, looking for the GOAT pitcher (specifically crossing eras). I'm saying stats can't tell that due to different rules for different eras ... as well as the difference in strike zones in the two leagues (due greatly to the different stance the home-plate umpire takes). Also take into account the difference in (as previously mentioned) # of pitches thrown per start. Lots easier to get more K's (for instance) if you're left in the game for 125 pitches instead of automatically being pulled after 95 no matter how well you are pitching.
Your misunderstanding me. We ARE comparing to the same era. That's how you get ERA+ and other era-adjusted stats like WARP and such. You compare to the same era to get era-independent numbers, then compare those numbers to get GOAT.
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Probably the only way to compare eras, but does not account for the cyclic nature of pitching vs batting.
Yes, it does absolutely. Pedro's peak was better than Koufax's peak (unless you put extreme value on pitching more innings) because he put up virtually identical numbers in an era of vastly better hitting. The league had cycled towards hitting, but Pedro was dominant.
Think of comparing across eras like comparing weight lifting under different gravities. Sandy Koufax was doing his lifting on the Moon, where everything is a bit lighter (the league favored pitching more) so his numbers, while impressive, are not as impressive as Pedro putting up those #s under heavier gravity (a hitters league).
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If you were the greatest pitcher during a time when pitching in general sucked, does that put you in the running for GOAT? ... etc, etc, etc.
Yes. Putting up a 3 ERA in 1998 is more impressive than putting up a 3 ERA in 1968.
Really, cross-era comparison isn't that bad. How well the league did is very very measurable, so you can pretty easily figure out an era-independent # for measuring someone. The only real bump in this road would be the EARLIEST period for baseball because you face a multitude of issues:
-Different fundamental practices for pitchers, more tired innings at the back end hurting pitchers and less stud relievers (though some of those starters coming in relief were great) which helps hitters
-Lack of integration, which creates potential problems throughout. I will continue to hold that Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all time, and no white pitcher had to face him in a real game. No one faced Satchel Paige in his prime, etc.
-During the deadball era fundamental differences in equipment that led to lowered power (the dead ball), high error rates (shitty gloves), and absurdly high batting averages (monstrous OFs with stuff falling in everywhere)
And even that last one can be mostly accounted for through the same method I've been talking about, it's just an EXTREME case of a different era.
Ummm ... okay, it's time to admit my ignorance. I have no idea what WARP is, or ERA+, or even WHIP.
And yes, I do give props for going longer into a game ... one reason why I get so disgusted with managers for pulling their starter solely because of pitch count.
--------------------
#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
- -
XenaGuy
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stax
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Ummm ... okay, it's time to admit my ignorance. I have no idea what WARP is, or ERA+, or even WHIP.
WARP-1.
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Wins Above Replacement Player, level 1. The number of wins this player contributed, above what a replacement level hitter, fielder, and pitcher would have done, with adjustments only for within the season. It should be noted that a team which is at replacement level in all three of batting, pitching, and fielding will be an extraordinarily bad team, on the order of 20-25 wins in a 162-game season.
WARP is also listed on a player's PECOTA card. The PECOTA WARP listing is designed to correspond to WARP-1, not WARP-2 or WARP-3.
ERA+ is taking your ERA, adjusting it for park factors, dividing it by the league average ERA, and multiplying it by 100. So if you pitch at league average (after adjusting for park factors) you get a 100 ERA+. 5% better than league average? 105. Etc, etc. WHIP is essentially baserunners per inning, Walks + Hits per Innings Pitched. That's not even really complex, and is a very valuable measure for pitchers.
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And yes, I do give props for going longer into a game ... one reason why I get so disgusted with managers for pulling their starter solely because of pitch count.
When a player goes much past 100 pitches (like 115 is the ultimate no-no borderline, so you don't want to go much past 100 worst case) he falls into incredibly high risk of injury. 10 more pitches out of a start in one start (as opposed to some random reliever throwing them) is not worth that massive injury risk. EVER.
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
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XenaGuy
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Ummm ... okay, it's time to admit my ignorance. I have no idea what WARP is, or ERA+, or even WHIP.Quote:
Wins Above Replacement Player, level 1. The number of wins this player contributed, above what a replacement level hitter, fielder, and pitcher would have done, with adjustments only for within the season. It should be noted that a team which is at replacement level in all three of batting, pitching, and fielding will be an extraordinarily bad team, on the order of 20-25 wins in a 162-game season.
WARP is also listed on a player's PECOTA card. The PECOTA WARP listing is designed to correspond to WARP-1, not WARP-2 or WARP-3.
ERA+ is taking your ERA, adjusting it for park factors, dividing it by the league average ERA, and multiplying it by 100. So if you pitch at league average (after adjusting for park factors) you get a 100 ERA+. 5% better than league average? 105. Etc, etc. WHIP is essentially baserunners per inning, Walks + Hits per Innings Pitched. That's not even really complex, and is a very valuable measure for pitchers.
Thanks for the education ... although I still don't understand the WARP thing.  ... "replacement level player"? ... Never mind, getting a headache. 
I've seen WHIP on the scoreboard, and wondered what it was, now I know! 
"Adjusting for park factors" ... Home park, or all parks pitched in?
 ... 
--------------------
#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
- -
XenaGuy
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stax
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Reged: Mon
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Thanks for the education ... although I still don't understand the WARP thing. ... "replacement level player"? ... Never mind, getting a headache.
A lot of more advanced stats are based on two things, "replacement level" players and "league average" players. League average is just what it sounds like, what the league averages out to in any given number. This is used for ERA+, OPS+, FRAA/BRAA/PRAA (Fielding, Batting, and Pitching Runs above average), etc.
"Replacement level" is the level of talent you can get from a AAA scrub for the minimum salary at any time. In other words "replacement level" is what you should automatically fill in to any lineup position worst case.
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"Adjusting for park factors" ... Home park, or all parks pitched in?
You know, I actually don't know. I believe all parks played in but I couldn't guarantee you that. In fact, I'm actually pretty sure they are scaled for all parks played in. That is, each park's factor counted for whatever % of games are played there. So 50% times home park factor + a scattering of other parks to add up to 100% (and the overall park factor that player played in that season).
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
Credit to original posters/cappers. Avatar by boones, bestest ever.
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XenaGuy
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Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
--------------------
#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
- -
XenaGuy
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stax
Liuser
Reged: Mon
Posts: 3355
Loc: New Haven, CT
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Quote:
Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
What the heck are you talking about, none of these are designed for fantasy ball.
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
Credit to original posters/cappers. Avatar by boones, bestest ever.
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XenaGuy
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Loc: Amphipolis, a village in Thrac...
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Quote:
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Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
What the heck are you talking about, none of these are designed for fantasy ball.
... Seemed that way on a couple of websites where I read about them.
--------------------
#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
- -
XenaGuy
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stax
Liuser
Reged: Mon
Posts: 3355
Loc: New Haven, CT
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Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
What the heck are you talking about, none of these are designed for fantasy ball.
... Seemed that way on a couple of websites where I read about them.
Some fantasy leagues might use them, but they are most definitely used to analyze real baseball
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
Credit to original posters/cappers. Avatar by boones, bestest ever.
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XenaGuy
Ionian Slave Master
Reged: Thu
Posts: 12891
Loc: Amphipolis, a village in Thrac...
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Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
What the heck are you talking about, none of these are designed for fantasy ball.
... Seemed that way on a couple of websites where I read about them.
Some fantasy leagues might use them, but they are most definitely used to analyze real baseball
Okay ... I just got the opinion some of them were started by some guy who wrote a fantasy baseball book or something ...
--------------------
#1: Natalie Portman
#2: (11-way tie)
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Biel
Anne Hathaway
Charlize Theron
Katharine McPhee
Maria Menounos
Emmanuelle Chriqui
Kristen Bell
Monica Bellucci
Nicole Kidman
Scarlett Johansson
Cordelia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."
- -
XenaGuy
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stax
Liuser
Reged: Mon
Posts: 3355
Loc: New Haven, CT
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Yeah, after a little reading on this stuff, I gather that many of these stats are mostly used for (and were designed for) fantasy baseball. I think you're right, it's home and away parks, each game is weighted for the park played in. Not being into fantasy ball, I was unfamiliar with them.
What the heck are you talking about, none of these are designed for fantasy ball.
... Seemed that way on a couple of websites where I read about them.
Some fantasy leagues might use them, but they are most definitely used to analyze real baseball
Okay ... I just got the opinion some of them were started by some guy who wrote a fantasy baseball book or something ...
Well first writing a book on fantasy baseball doesn't make everything you related to fantasy baseball. Second, Baseball Prospectus, Bill James, or Voros McCracken? No
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Lucy Liu | Giada di Laurentiis | Marisa Miller | Scarlett Johansson | Michelle Trachtenberg | Christina Aguilera | Elisha Cuthbert | Salma Hayek | Hayden Panettiere | Elizabeth Hurley | Diora Baird | Kristen Bell | Jennifer Love Hewitt | Isla Fisher | Megan Fox | Olivia Wilde
Credit to original posters/cappers. Avatar by boones, bestest ever.
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